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Burning Issue: Is it time for nuclear weapons to be removed forever from the Clyde?

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Published Date: 04 February 2009
Yes

ANGUS ROBERTSON, SNP MP for Moray and SNP parliamentary leader at Westminster
THE conference on Trident in Edinburgh yesterday underlined our commitment to make the world a safer place by ridding ourselves of weapons of mass destruction. Majority opinion in Scotland is opposed to the Trident weapons system that is based on the
Clyde.

The efforts of the Scottish Government to support a genuinely ethical foreign policy are to be welcomed. They have been boosted in recent weeks by senior British military figures who have questioned the case for the Trident system.

In a letter to the Times on 15 January, 2008, the former head of the UK's armed forces, Field Marshal Lord Bramall, and generals Lord Ramsbotham and Sir Hugh Beach, denounced Trident and described it as "irrelevant" and "completely useless". They referred to its influence and effectiveness as a deterrent as, "a fallacy".

Meanwhile, other countries, including the United States and Russia, have made significant signals that will help reduce nuclear tensions. Moscow has halted the stationing of missiles around Kaliningrad and President Barack Obama has launched a review of the Pentagon's controversial missile defence shield in central Europe.

The UK government is launching a discussion paper and

Scotland can help lift the nuclear shadow, too, by deciding to end the presence of Trident weapons.

Not only do a majority of Scots oppose Trident, but MSPs and MPs have also voted against the renewal of the nuclear weapons system.

No

ERIC JOYCE, Labour MP for Falkirk

LABOUR has a proud record on disarmament – but the key is to get agreements on all sides that create a nuclear-free world, not to give them up unilaterally. The SNP obsession with putting dogma above jobs and our strategic interest is wrong.

Polls show that the majority of Scots believe Scotland should not give up nuclear weapons while others still have them. And other countries hostile to Scotland have them or want them, particularly North Korea and, potentially, Iran.

Most Scots do not want their country left defenceless in the face of others who have or who seek the bomb.

Of course, nobody wants to use nuclear bombs. They are terrible. But if you are serious about getting rid of nuclear weapons, you need a plan to get rid of all of them, not just the ones on the Clyde.

The SNP's ridiculously parochial world view is exposed by the chilling, yet simple, fact that even if Scotland did divest itself of nuclear weapons, it would not escape the fallout of a nuclear attack south of the Border.

That is why very few people believe in unilateral nuclear disarmament. The power of persuasion alone is a weak bargaining chip when entering negotiations with the likes of North Korea and Iran.

Only by agreeing to work multilaterally can we rid our world of nuclear weapons. Any other approach is naive.

And in these difficult economic times, the SNP's proposal to lose 11,000 jobs that depend on the Clyde bases is economic madness.





The full article contains 517 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 03 February 2009 10:57 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Nuclear energy
 
1

Nevsky;,

Moscow 04/02/2009 00:05:05
North Korea and Iran are hostile to Scotland? That's news to me?

Eric Joyce believes that Scotland might as well have them as if London was bombed Scotland would get the nuclear fallout anyway?

Is this man insane?

2

subrosa,

04/02/2009 00:39:14
'Most Scots do not want their country left defenceless'

Our country is defenceless. Our troops are away fighting US wars.

Having Trident in Scotland makes us a target; doesn't Mr Joyce see that? It's no wonder he resigned from the army, he must have been a total embarrassment to them with an attitude like that.
3

,

04/02/2009 00:53:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
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4

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 01:43:09
Hang on. Is an adult man suggesting North Korea might launch a nuclear attack on Scotland? Have I understood that correctly?
5

Thomas Aikenhead,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 03:04:24
If Iran does not have them, the UK can take a lead by being the first nuclear power to renounce and decommission its nuclear arsenal.

"The power of persuasion alone is a weak bargaining chip when entering negotiations with the likes of North Korea and Iran." (Eric Joyce, Labour)

I was not aware that Scotland was negotiating with either of these two states.

The nuclear weapons should go because Scotland does not want them, the UK cannot use them, and the world would be a better place without them!

As for his logic, if applied in the past, slavery would still exist! The UK unilaterally abolished slavery at great economic cost because it was the right thing to do!


6

,

04/02/2009 03:33:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
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7

Queen D,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 06:07:38
Am I to deduce from this that the long held stance of the Scottish Labour group is about to change and become pro Trident 2?
They are willing to have WMDs nearest to the most populated area of Scotland for time immemorial or until such time as Iran or North Korea, develop really long range missiles, take umbridge and decide to take us out?
Where are these polls of which Mr Joyce speaks??
8

steve 1511,

aberdeen 04/02/2009 06:34:46
eric joyce another lybour gibbering eejit
the mp for FALKIRK WEST lives in SOUTH CROYDON,his wife teaches in south croydon his kids go to school in south croydon his family home is in south croydon,how can this man represent the people of falkirk from south croydon london,this man has topped the league of mp expenses claims and makes the top 10 claimants on a yearly basis.as many other lybour politicians it seems his main aim is to feather his nest from the westminister trough at the expense of the taxpayer and the people of falkirk west

wee are doomed with boon,dooomed
9

Wardog™,

04/02/2009 07:39:08


YES
10

 sm753,

04/02/2009 07:47:35


Ho ho ho.

The usual line-up of Nationalist Cringers demonstrating their total ignorance of deterrence and defence.

Total refusal to acknowledge that Glasgow is, was and always will be a target whether or not Trident is based nearby.

Meanwhile, those of us with an ounce of sense will continue to support the retention and update of the most cost-effective system in the inventory to provide deterrence into the long, long term.

Trident - the capability to deliver unstoppable buckets of instant sunshine to a nutter capital near you. Distance no object.

Yeeeee - haaa!
11

Queen D,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 07:49:04
In the herald Des Browne ( remember him?) is saying that with the messiah in the US it's time for this Government to show the way in nuclear disarmament!!
Who'd a' thunk?!
12

TWC,

04/02/2009 08:19:51
10 sm753,
I'm not a Nat and I don't want Nuclear weapons, so if Labour or anybody else puts retention of nuclear weapons on there manifesto I won't vote for them.
It's simple we all have a choice at the GE.
If the Majority want them they can vote for them.
13

John S,

04/02/2009 08:30:41
On 14th Mar 2007, 33 Scottish MPs voted against Trident with 22 for.
On 14th June 2007, 71 MSP's voted against Trident with 16 for.
14

Mercutio,

FALKIRK 04/02/2009 09:20:08
Burning Issue/Nuclear Weapons unfortunate choice of headline.
Regardless what the protagonists and political geeks say either side of the argument, this is not a "burning issue" with ordinary people.
15

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 04/02/2009 09:48:56
Gone are the days of MAD. Iran's targets will be Tel Aviv, Washington, New York and London. I don't think Iran will be stockpiling vast numbers of ICBMs thus making Scotland a target.

Iran won't drop large nuclears in Israel, not with their second most holy site in Jerusalem.

The only worry from Iran is the large numbers of Scottish soldiers fighting in Afghanistan.
16

For Scotlands Future,

Vote NO TO TRIDENT 04/02/2009 10:00:17
ANGUS ROBERTSON: Not only do a majority of Scots oppose Trident, but MSPs and MPs have also voted against the renewal of the nuclear weapons system.

ERIC JOYCE: Most Scots do not want their country left defenceless in the face of others who have or who seek the bomb.

I thought that Labour in Scotland would want to get rid of Trident from the Clyde. If Glasgow disappeared in a nuclear cloud, so would most of their voters.

What is the truth?? More likely the SNP's view. I don't think the people in Scotland are living in fear of a nuclear strike.
17

Luigiana,

Aberdeen 04/02/2009 10:03:26
The population of Glasgow is not only threatened by the fact that this base is a target for a nuclear strike. There is also a real possibility of an accident, causing radioactive contamination over a wide area.

Would Westminster accept the equivalent a Chernobyl power station to be bult on the Thames?

Scotland has been let down badly by the Labour Party on this matter - so much for the old CND activists.
18

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 10:05:36
The “logic” of Joyce

“The SNP's ridiculously parochial world view is exposed by the chilling, yet simple, fact that even if Scotland did divest itself of nuclear weapons, it would not escape the fallout of a nuclear attack south of the Border.”

How exactly would Scotland escape the fallout of a nuclear attack south of the border by retaining WMD?

Does anyone admit to having voted for this balloon?
19

 sm753,

04/02/2009 10:13:12
17

"Gone are the days of MAD. Iran's targets will be Tel Aviv, Washington, New York and London. I don't think Iran will be stockpiling vast numbers of ICBMs thus making Scotland a target."

Oh good. I'm sure we can rely on your informed opinion as an internationally renowned expert on geopolitical strategy, for the next 50 years.

19

"There is also a real possibility of an accident, causing radioactive contamination over a wide area."

Only in your crazed imagination.
20

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 10:30:16
Smee

Who has been deterred from doing what, by the presence of WMD on the Clyde?
21

Farky,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 10:41:47
Move these bombs and subs to Devonport!
AND SOONER THE BETTER!

22

bill-alba,

fife 04/02/2009 10:43:27
surprise surprise the british man #21 wants to retain nuclear weapons.. does he still think that he is in the great british empire..yes he does..
23

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 11:13:16
#21 Crazed imagination? You're the one who apparently thinks Scotland is in danger of being nuked by North Korea.

Who exactly will this "deterrence" deter? Not terrorists, who have no state. So precisely which state has designs on Scotland which can only be resisted with nuclear weapons? Only one nation has invaded Scotland in the last thousand years, and I'm not sure nuking England would do that much good.
24

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 12:06:20
#26 "And you can, of course, guarantee there will be no-one to deter for the next 50 years?"

I can't guarantee we won't be eaten by space crocodiles the size of the moon. Should we also spend billions of pounds constructing defences against those? MY GOD, MAN, DON'T YOU EVEN *CARE* ABOUT THE GIANT SPACE CROCODILE THREAT?
25

Andy Mac,

G20 04/02/2009 12:27:08
sm753 claims Glasgow will be a target if we have the bomb or not.

I suppose what can be drawn from this clownish statement is that most European cities are "targets" too.

Of course, the UK is particularly reviled across the wider world for being an American stooge.

An estimated 75bn will be paid to the US for trident. Puts the 50m for the painting in Edinburgh in perspective.
26

Jay Kay,

04/02/2009 12:36:05
Look if some mad terrorist is planning to let of a large nuclear device in London anytime soon could they please check to see if Mandy, Broon and Darling are all at their posts prior to detonation, that would be fine thanks santa.
27

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 12:50:06
#30 We do have that capability. You might not have noticed because there wasn't much about it on the news, but a conventional army, on suspicion of the country having weapons that threatened the West, quite recently entered one of Iran's neighbours, annihilated the army, overthrew the government and installed a new regime. Can't recall the name of the country in question, but it was quite similar to Iran - Irap, or Iraf, or Iraz or something like that.

Much more importantly, WHAT ABOUT THE GIANT SPACE CROCODILES?
28

Arfur,

04/02/2009 13:07:43
Get them out of Scotland. If the English government really want them that bad stick them on the Thames.
29

 sm753,

04/02/2009 13:39:30
28

"MY GOD, MAN, DON'T YOU EVEN *CARE* ABOUT THE GIANT SPACE CROCODILE THREAT?"

Muppet.

Nuclear-tipped Trident missiles would, of course, be rather effective against giant space crocodiles.

"Eat plutonium death, toothy!"
30

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 13:45:18
The crocodiles, as I already noted at #28, are THE SIZE OF THE MOON. Firing Tridents, or indeed Trident 2s, at something the size of the Moon would be akin to trying to take down Edinburgh Castle with a peashooter.

It's so typical of Unionists that they would leave us entirely unguarded against the giant space crocodile menace.
31

LEAL,

04/02/2009 13:56:05
Labour is in favour of nuclear weapons.Joyce is a fool.
32

,

04/02/2009 14:07:37
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33

The west awake,

Argyll 04/02/2009 14:16:26
Mandela and the ANC unilaterally gave up South Africa's nuclear arms programme.
According to that intellectual giant and world-renowned expert in geopolitical affairs Eric (no expense spared) Joyce, that makes them "niaive".

Who do YOU believe?

34

 sm753,

04/02/2009 15:21:55
37

"A LEADING authority on international law has warned that nuclear weapons in Scotland increase the risk of a nuclear attack on the country"

Brilliant, Tracky.

Oh yes. If I wanted an expert opinion on global strategic threats against the UK over the next 50 years, a lawyer is certainly the first person I would go to.

Ha. Ha. Ha.

"Judge Christopher Weeramantry" - is that a name or a tropical disease?
35

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 15:37:57
#39 Never mind all that. We're on the subject of imaginary future threats to Scotland. WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THE DEADLY PERIL OF GIANT SPACE CROCODILES THE SIZE OF THE MOON? Is it:

(a) spend tens of billions of pounds coming up with anti-space-crocodile defence plans, or

(b) just acknowledge that the inconceivably vast balance of probability is that we won't ever be subject to attack by giant space crocodiles the size of the moon, and spend the money on some schools and hospitals?
36

Daveunderwater,

House of Common Brown Envelopes 04/02/2009 15:47:25
"The US has also threatened to exclude France from the major decision making processes within NATO, as it did over the decision to send military aid to Turkey."

"Bullying, bribery and blackmail do not create a moral case for war. The Labour Government must make clear its involvement to date with these activities, and immediately cease its involvement in this clear case of 'chequebook diplomacy'. Tony Blair cannot build a moral case for war on the back of such dishonest tactics."

SNP Westminster Group Leader Alex Salmond MP added:

"The SNP look forward to the debate on Iraq in the House of Commons tomorrow."

"The new UN Resolution does not provide a lawful basis for war on Iraq. We know that the inspectors need more time to carry out their duties under Resolution 1441, and UNMOVIC should be given every opportunity to carry out their vital role in securing a peaceful solution to this situation."

"There is no credible evidence to back up a war on Iraq at this stage. What the draft US/UK Resolution does is gives a blank cheque to George W. Bush, and this is unjustified and unwanted by the people of Scotland."

"While Tony Blair is on a conveyor belt to war, the SNP remain convinced that peaceful solutions can still be found through the UN."
37

TWC,

04/02/2009 16:22:00
I would like to quote an old Labour Mantra

Ban the Bomb
38

ExpatBackinScotland,

Carnoustie 04/02/2009 16:22:02
Scotland has no enemies. The UK does, but Scotland itself doesnt.
If the arguement was "To be in the UK we need trident", my answer would be, "aye probably, but it doesnt have to be in Scotland". Of course, an independent Scotland wouldnt even need it because we have no enemies.


Another UNion Divident WMD on the CLyde
39

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 04/02/2009 16:22:54
Jim Murphy gave the SNP a roasting over the loss of jobs in Scotland if Trident is scrapped. Maybe he should have listened to Foreign Secretary David Miliband in Washington laying down the steps for nuclear disarmament, to rid the world of nuclear weapons.
The UK forces would be out of the Faslane base like a shot if this happens.
They abandoned Scapa Flow after both wars and have all but pulled out of Pitreavie and Rosyth.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23634578-details/Bid+to+speed+up+nuclear+disarmament/article.do
40

 sm753,

04/02/2009 16:47:27
43

"Scotland has no enemies. The UK does, but Scotland itself doesnt."

Bwa-ha-ha-ha-HAH!

Neither did the Czechs in 1938, the Poles in 1939, or the Danes, Norwegians, Dutch and Belgians in 1940.

BONGGGG!
41

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 04/02/2009 16:51:54
#45 "Neither did the Czechs in 1938, the Poles in 1939"

That's a rather extraordinary statement. Hitler had made his detestation of the Slavs as a "sub-human" race fit only for slave labour and extermination abundantly plain long before then. You should have paid a little more attention in history, dearie.
42

Miss H,

04/02/2009 17:15:11
I totally beleve that we are in danger of GIANT SPACE CROCODILES THE SIZE OF THE MOON.

But then I also believe in Dr Who so we don't need nukes to save us. The timelord will.
43

,

04/02/2009 17:25:40
Comment Removed By Administrator
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44

McNic,

04/02/2009 18:10:28
A strong Independent Scotland should bring all these so called Terrorist States (Israel being the worst of them) to our table and have open and honest talks to find the way forward for my kids and everyone else's.
We have a wealth of experience with cleaning Nuclear debris from our shores, experience that should be offered to the emerging nuclear nations for the global good.
We must not allow Westminster to put any new Nuclear in or near our beautiful country.
45

TWC,

04/02/2009 18:59:30
I saw Spud(murphy) and his Golden Wonders on Scottish Questions, hardly a word about reserved issues it was all nat bashing why do we have Scottish questions. Michael Martin (speaker) had to tell them off.

What is being DONE at westminster for Scotland (BY ALL PARTIES) - the Square root of FA.
46

 sm753,

04/02/2009 19:50:09
49

"A strong Independent Scotland "

Bwa-ha-ha-ha-HAH!

There's your problem, see?

An "independent" Scotland would not be "strong", it would be a tin-pot little a*se-end of a place no-one was interested in listening to.

BONGGGG!
47

Winters,

Glasgow 04/02/2009 20:36:39
As I put it on the other thread: What could the Scottish government do if the Trident base was transferred from Faslane to the southern shore of the Solway Firth. It is in England and would be perfectly legal.
48

,

04/02/2009 20:58:18
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49

Eric D,

05/02/2009 17:22:50
The SNP are once again on a vote loser here,just like the rest of their madcap 'love the world' policies.

 

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