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Microsoft boss: Salmond is 'wrong' on universities



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Published Date:
01 November 2007
ONE of Bill Gates's top lieutenants has warned the Scottish Government that it is wrong to try to fund universities almost entirely through public money.
Bob McDowell, a Microsoft vice-president, who is due to meet Alex Salmond, the First Minister, today, spoke out about the need to have stronger business connections with universities to help pay for students' courses.

One of the first moves of th
e SNP administration was to announce its plans to scrap the graduate endowment - the payment made by graduates after they leave university.

Mr Salmond has championed the Scottish Government's aim of reintroducing "free" university education, but Holyrood is facing an increasingly large bill from the sector.

Scotland's universities have asked for an extra £168 million in government funding to help compete with English institutions, which have more money to spend, principally because they can charge student fees.

Mr McDowell, a patron of the University of the Highlands and Islands, said: "The university infrastructure in Scotland clearly is an asset, but I don't think there is enough integration between universities and business."

Mr McDowell criticised Scotland's tertiary education system for being "for the most part funded publicly". Singling out the lack of any graduate contribution, he said: "On this one, you are wrong. Those that go through the system get the value in the quality of their life. Why wouldn't they owe something back?

"Why would all the citizens contribute to something a small percentage get the value out of? I don't get it."

Mr McDowell said it was common for businesses in the United States to contribute financially to universities.

"We get better employees; we get some influence over what they are taught."

A Scottish Government spokeswoman said: "We understand the need for business and universities to work closely. We are not complacent about that, but recent evidence suggests that Scotland is generally better at that than the rest of the UK.

"On the issue of financing, we took the decision that access to universities should be on the ability to learn, not on the ability to pay and graduates make a significant contribution to university funding through the tax system."

THE DILEMMA

UNIVERSITIES have asked the Scottish Government for £168 million in extra funding amid fears they will be unable to compete with their English counterparts.

Since English universities were allowed to begin charging fees in 2005, Scottish principals have feared the day when the cap on top-up fees will be scrapped and English universities could charge what they like, creating a lucrative revenue stream not available north of the Border.



The full article contains 436 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Meths Rides Again™,

01/11/2007 01:26:36

For an economist, he is pretty thick. Then again, he is an economist!

Higher education funding is one circle I've never squared. Why is it that we spend SO much on civil servants and, dare I say it, donkey projects like the Scottish Parliament building and Trams, when that money would make our universities amongst the best in the world?

We should invest billions in our Universities, not petty cash, thrown here and there.

2

Mercutio,

Falkirk 01/11/2007 01:35:17

Alex Salmond is an Economist

3

James C,

01/11/2007 01:37:54

"Why would all the citizens contribute to something a small percentage get the value out of? I don't get it."

Many Americans spout a similar line when waxing lyrical about why the NHS is such a terrible idea.

4

GrahamR,

01/11/2007 01:49:21

Never mind American views on the NHS. How can anyone believe anything from "a Microsoft vice-president". I mean, have you SEEN Vista?

5

Aqwes,

Edinburgh 01/11/2007 02:08:01

I, and I hope Scotland, will take no lectures from a man who doesn't know what it's like to be denied something due to a lack of money.

This guy's primary aim is to turn higher education into a money factory for microsoft. He doesn't care if geniuses from disadvantage economic backgrounds don't get the chance to earn a degree. All he cares about is turning a profit. It doesn't matter to him that he's basically making university for the monied elite, and making it easier to buy an education rather than earn one.

6

Kung-Half-Fu,

Cathay Prolific 01/11/2007 02:20:10

"Why would all the citizens contribute to something a small percentage get the value out of? I don't get it."

That is a telling comment on American big-business-comes-first values vis-a-vis a Scottish tradition of which he is apparently totally ignorant.

More tellingly ...

"We get better employees; we get some influence over what they are taught."

Influence over what they are taught? Nice. Teach them yourself then. University professionals, your views please.

#4. GrahamR
Vista is the latest barefaced con from Microsoft. It is slow to the point of standstill, therefore useless to me. Microsoft rules. So much for US antitrust actions against this company which represents corporate America hand in glove with government ...

7

Geordie Peebles,

01/11/2007 02:32:53

You are a Scotsman journalist with 2 stories in front of you.

A) Some comments by a Microsoft chairman suggesting criticism of the SNP Government. Reach - Scotland.

B) Some comments by a Microsoft chairman suggesting funding education to control it and future employees. Reach - global.

Now which one of those two stories do you lead on?

8

Sydney Arab,

01/11/2007 02:35:58

Poster number 5 - I was going to say exactly the same thing. All Microsoft are interested in is grabbing the cream of the crop to work for them. Well put.

9

Abel Magwitch,

01/11/2007 02:39:36

Scotland's older universities can look back on magnificent achievements in the sciences, engineering, economics and philosophy. It is easily forgotten that until 1945 outside funding was almost non existent; professors had great prestige but meagre incomes, and the young students lived in poverty. They and their families made immense personal sacrifices on behalf of education and research. Anyone who doubts this should read A.J.Cronin's "The Green Years" and "The Citadel".

The success of the universities was driven by the struggle for knowledge and not by fat grants from either government or industry.

The university culture has changed. Has the change been for the better? The arguments now seem to hinge around "funding" and they have degenerated into politics, government versus business. The universities are not part of the Civil Service and nor are they industrial research organizations.

Let us hope that there are "lads [and lasses] o'pairts" within the system now who will show us that the old thirst for knowledge is still alive, regardless of all the financial and political squabbles.

10

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, CA vote Hillary Clinton for US Pres 01/11/2007 02:45:19

Salmond crosoft boss: Salmond is 'wrong' on universities
------------------------------------------------
On a height scale, Salmond measures to below the ankle of Bill Gates

Salmond is a one trick Pony. Bill Gates is a $59 billion dude self made.

Salmond will stay that way,

The SNP ...SleazeNationalParty

GC

11

Big Nige,

Arizona, USA 01/11/2007 03:14:06

"we get some influence over what they are taught" (so we can make lots more money for our top executives and shareholders and you can have a bunch of crap commercial colleges that churn out mindless corporate slaves that will perpetuate the system...)

Keep education (at all levels) accessible to all and free from corporate influences.

Hey #10, that's a great point. I never thought of it like that.

12

An Australian of Scottish Ancestry,

01/11/2007 03:58:40

Education, like water, is not an asset, it's an essential! Like water, everybody should have equal, unhindered access to it - where ever they live!

Any costs that are incurred by students duting their studies should be deferred until they graduate, and earn a minimum annual income above a certain amount. That way, the qualified, (not skilled, but qualified) workforce can grow and sustain the incurred costs of acquiring their education.

What's wrong with free education if it means reinforcing the country's future economic, cultural and industrial standing?

13

An Beal Bacht,

Travelling in Nihlon 01/11/2007 04:16:31

The American model of education is for students to be lumbered with a mountain of debt. Then Microsoft et al. come along and scoop the best on the promise to write off that debt. So whether you are minded to use your knowlege for the public good or not you have been co-opted into the capitalist grist mill.

I think our students should be seconded. We should pay the whole shebang. However, after graduation they should be required to work in Scotland, at a modest rate of remuneration, for a time equal to the length of their studies.

In the fields of medicine, engineering, economics etc... giving the country a pool of talented people and a competitive edge which could help us solve many of our problems.

Otherwise we train them and they move to the States to work for Microsoft while we are left to pay the freight.

That being said, give students the option.

14

Mist001,

Marseille 01/11/2007 04:16:46

Alex Salmond will see this for the con trick it really is. If I can see it, then surely he will too!

This Microsoft guy tries to pressure Salmond into accepting the idea of funding by businesses (and by the looks of it, it's Microsoft trying to get it's foot in the door).

So, Salmond and the SNP think it's a great idea, they go and accept funding by whatever business, not just Microsoft. Everything's fine and dandy but...........

You have to do what the businesses tell you, or rather, 'advise' you to do.

If you don't, they withdraw their funding and suddenly the university system collapses with budget deficits, no money, nothing, then they're back to square one.

I think Alex Salmond will see through this attempt, (which I think is a form of blackmail by announcing it through the press), for the con trick that it is, and he won't fall for it.

Michael.

15

Gareth,

Ottawa 01/11/2007 04:35:01

I hardly think we need to take lectures on how to operate the education system from an American. The US Education system is a total joke that has left about 90-million Americans "functionally illiterate" according to the Government's own research.

...and is it not Bill Gates himself who is endlessly criticizing the US Education system because it is leaving the US ill-prepared for the future with a lack of the educated people it will need to compete in the 21st century? If Bill Gates himself says the US education system is broken then why on earth should we listen to one of his underlings telling us we should adopt it?

It's also simply untrue to say people who receive free education pay nothing back - if they do earn more in their life then they'll consequently pay more tax, so they are paying for their education that way - if the government needs to borrow in order to fully fund this, then so be it - its much better for the state to borrow than to force individuals to incumber themselves with debt - personal debt limits personal freedom, while state debt does not.

16

Ian_,

usa 01/11/2007 04:42:49

"Why would all the citizens contribute to something a small percentage get the value out of? I don't get it."

That comment is asinine. Doesn't the whole society benefit from doctors, engineers, teachers, and many of the other graduates of our universities?

Judging by its poor, unreliable products, Microsoft must have a policy of hiring duds.

17

Mist001,

Marseille 01/11/2007 05:06:58

I'm going back a wee while because I haven't used Windows 98 in a long time, but there's something on it where you can view the devices on your PC, such as memory, hard drives, graphics cards and all that stuff. Kind of like device manager in Windows XP.

Anyway, if anyone cares to have a look at it, the programmers were very sloppy, they can't even spell. Look for the details about 'Hard Drive'.

It's spelt 'Hard Dirve'!!!

So, here's someone from Microsoft trying to tell Scotland how to run it's education system, and they release a product worldwide, that nobody had even checked properly!!

Alex Salmond will see straight through this guy.

Michael.

18

Yok Finney,

Ross-shire 01/11/2007 05:29:53

We're picts. We're engineers.

Neglect this and we'll be a people without souls. For mankind needs the arts of technology -- and music too!

Building and testing things should start from an early age. Although J Clerk Maxwell didn't waste him time going to primary school - instead he jumped about the braes of Dunfries-shire in the fresh air. I expect he learned a few things from blacksmiths, weavers, farmers, shepherds. Neither did Andre Ampere. His father gave'm the current encyclopedia and let'm read it from A to Z and if anything appealed, he could go to Paris to study it in due course and see the sights.

After you've learned sufficient calculus, it's time to practise drawing naked women. For engineers need an eye for line, proportions, design.

We need more women in engineering too.

19

Joe,

Next train out 01/11/2007 05:51:36

Someone criticises the SNP and all the SNP sheep start bleating..
Pathetic, totally pathetic.

20

An Australian of Scottish Ancestry,

01/11/2007 06:03:23

#15 Gareth,
I disagree. I believe that our friends in the US of A can give us vivid insights into the very type of education system that we should avoid.

#13 Scunnert gives some very confronting image of what the American system is like. I would not want my children to endure that when they reach tertiary level!

21

An Australian of Scottish Ancestry,

01/11/2007 06:10:06

#19,
Would you remain idle if somebody criticised New Labour or the Libdems? I am a nationalist, but according to some who use this forum, I am somehow aggressive if I defend or speak for my cause; or I apparently have a lesser right to comment because I live in Australia.

To those who condemn me because I have had the balls to venture beyond my home borders, and see how things work in the real world - and not just in Edinburgh, I say go to hell! I was born in Dingwall, and spent the first twenty-one years of my life in Scotland before leaving for the first time. I pay close to thirty-thousand pounds tax per year to the Exchequer, so I will damned-well comment as I please!

22

An Australian of Scottish Ancestry,

01/11/2007 06:11:24

I am, after all, a duel citizen.

23

Haleakelaman,

Auld Grey City 01/11/2007 06:33:12

Trouble with business getting involved with universities is they have the financial clout to force the institutions hand. i.e. policy making and department closures, etc. It already happens with research, besides that who would want universities churning out business clones. There are some great classic departments that would be for the heave that have just as much to give society(if not more) if we forget that.

24

Mist001,

Marseille 01/11/2007 06:42:30

"I am, after all, a duel citizen."

Does that mean you shoot people at dawn?

I agree with you, just because we don't live in Scotland just now, doesn't mean we can't have opinions.

My partner is French and we're having a baby, that's why I'm in Marseille. I've only been here two months mind you, but that doesn't stop me having an opinion about what goes on back in Edinburgh and Scotland.

I suppose it's like the cliche, 'You can take the man out of Scotland, but you can't take Scotland out of the man.

In my opinion, you have as much right to make a comment about Scotland as someone in Scotland does.

Michael.

25

James,

Dundee 01/11/2007 06:47:23

The deciding factor of me returning to Scotland from the States was the hopeless public education system in the US.
No way were my girls going to be disadvantaged.
They can always go back later if they wish.

Microsoft, indeed Silicon Valley, and institutions such as MIT would be dead in the water without 'importing' talent from furth of the United States of America.

26

An Australian of Scottish Ancestry,

01/11/2007 06:58:34

#24,
No, "duel citizen" is a bit of Australian legal chicanery which denotes a person who is simultaneously a citizen of two countries!

Thankyou for your very mature understanding and insight! I wish that all of our countrymen and women shared it!

27

Mist001,

Marseille 01/11/2007 07:13:42

LOL!!

#26, I was trying to make a joke!! It's Dual citizen, not duel!

Duel is what two people do with pistols at dawn!!

Michael.

28

Dave M,

01/11/2007 07:32:57

Joe

Sorry, we'll all just shut up, eh?

Train not arrived yet?

29

Conan,

Moffat 01/11/2007 07:37:58

#27 - You are so out of date with that 'duel' comment. No self respecting duelist would be either awake or sober enough at dawn - so that's a nonstarter. The way its done these days is you and your adversary meet on a Scotsman web page at an undetermined time and then proceed to bore the entire planet with your postings and exchanges. It is a hideous process, but one gets hurt.

30

Boy Wonder,

01/11/2007 07:42:42

This is all about big business trying to strong-arm countries into their views on education.

To be avoided at all costs ... especially the American models, which is as bad as their medical policy!

31

Boy Wonder,

01/11/2007 07:44:22

#29. Absolutely spot on, Conan. Which page asnd article are you and Guga scheduled for today?

32

deadeye dick,

01/11/2007 07:48:31

"We get better employees; we get some influence over what they are taught."

yeah more influence than mum and dad or the teaching staff. Why is it that
education these days is all about producing individuals suitable for employers.

When Education should be about equipping individuals with skills and abilities to enable them to make a choice. The mentality which promotes a manufacturing line view of Education. Turning out people solely to the benefit of employers have done an enormous amount of damage to the United Kingdom.

Education just for the sake of being employed is the biggest misuse of the education system and a waste of human potential.

Potential to do what some may ask... What they 'choose' to do I'm sure we would end up with a better world.

33

Mist001,

Marseille 01/11/2007 07:48:54

#29

Right!! Ootside noo!!

Michael.

34

Boy Wonder,

01/11/2007 07:50:09

#33 Mist ... you wait your turn!!! Conan and Guga have to have their daily go first!! :)

35

Concerned local,

Edinburgh 01/11/2007 07:53:07

Why would all the citizens contribute to something a small percentage get the value out of? I don't get it."

I think this is a statement of values by the Microsoft VP, not a question seeking an answer - they want higher education to be the province of a few, mostly welathy, people. The Scottish ideal of higher education being available to people on the basis of their merits, not the state of their bank statements, is total anathema to these people, who want to perpetuate economic domination by an oligarchy of people just like themselves

36

Barnett Formula Admin,

01/11/2007 07:57:09

Even with more than a £1 billion of UK public money, scotland produced only 7% of UK new undergraduates.

0.52% of scotlands population became undergraduates in 2007
0.60% of Englands population became undergraduates in 2007.

Rather than knock Microsoft you should ask why scotlands universities are failing!

http://www.ucas.com/website/news/media_releases/2007/2007...

37

John Jamieson,

Edinburgh 01/11/2007 08:17:00

We used to have apprentices in all the trades, what happened to them ? A previous government allowed industry in general to opt out of training their own staff, it saved them a fortune which went straight into profits. Where are our plumbers, electricians, joiners, bricklayers, etc now ? They are coming into the country from abroad while our own untrained workforce subsists on benefits.

38

Mikey,

01/11/2007 08:37:48

I see Joe the moron is still here. Why haven't you got the train, sycophant? I'm beginning to think you're just an ignorant troll. No, make that STUPID, ignorant troll!

39

McNasty,

Edinburgh 01/11/2007 08:44:09

#10

You are so SAD.

40

Wes Q Mantooth II,

01/11/2007 08:54:44

Given this chaps surname and his patronage at UHI Uni it would be easy to surmise that he's a Scot. However, a little eugoogleising and we find that he's no native son and comes with lovely militaristic background.

So, given the unionist stance on ex-pats or those a couple of generations removed, should we really be listening to his comments?


'McDowell has served on the board of directors of Visio Corp., Entevo Corp. and the Virginia Military Institute Foundation and served as a member of the Virginia Commission on Information Technology. He is a member of the Board of Visitors of the Virginia Military Institute and the International Advisory Board of Scottish Enterprise. He holds a bachelors degree in economics from Virginia Military Institute and a master of science degree in business administration from Boston University.'


http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/bmcdowell/default...

41

Tweedmouth,

01/11/2007 09:03:51

Universities used to be centres of excellence where intelligence, talent and ability were the criteria for competitive admission. Only a very small percentage of the population has ever had the intelligence to benefit from a higher degree (less than 4%) and far less than 1% has the IQ level of 140 plus that could scale the higher peaks of research and discovery.

The vast mass of people who are perfectly intelligent but not at this high level were far better accommodated at Polytechnics, Colleges of Technology and Colleges of Education; they went on to highly paid jobs in business, industry and education. The overwhelming mass of the population went into the workforce via apprenticeships and skills-based training.

Social engineering and political correctness has declared that 'everybody' should have the right to go to university - rather than those who can truly benefit. The result is a vast increas in student populations, vast increase in student debt, 30% drop-out rates from first year students who cannot cope and are very unhappy.

Nobody in the university hierarchy will ever admit to all this because millions of students means millions of pounds - even if the result is total chaos and massive debt for young people. What we need is a return to excellence, real apprenticeships and real jobs.

42

subrosa,

01/11/2007 09:07:59

#37 What happened is that in the 80s, with the introduction of NVQs and SVQs the splendid City and Guilds qualifications were sidelined by colleges as the SVQs were of a much lower standard but would produce more bums on seats = money. This stopped responsible employers who offered apprenticeships allowing apprentices to attend colleges as the qualifications weren't worth the paper they were written on. But employers got no government help with this decision and mainly stopped offering apprenticeships. There are a few colleges around which still offer engineering related C & G qualifications but only a very few. Hope that answers your query.

43

Micropacer,

01/11/2007 09:20:33

Out of the 5 of my friends and family that have gone to Uni only 1 is actually doing a Job his degree was relevant too.

The rest only go the jobs they are in because they have a degree but freely admit the degree was no help and has nothing to do with the jobs they have.

As someone that doesnt know much about the system but has some common sense I have to say that smells like a complete waste of time and money training these people to take highly paid jobs someone without the degree could be better at!

I left School with nowt - prefered sports to studies and went straight into goods in for a warehouse. I worked my way to the top.

A family member of mine came out of Uni with a degree but couldnt get a job relevant so got a job with a local enterprise company. She comes to me for advice all the time - the Irony of this is she is paid £10k more per year to do a job I could do no problem - but would never get due to not having a degree.

If this is how our system of training people for our econemy works then China will pysh all over us in a few years.

We spend money training people to do stuff that they wont do then pay them more for doing something they cannot do because of it.

It all seems a complete waste of time and money IMO.

The problem is that people still put qualifications above all else - the capability to do the job needed is what business wants.

My current company is full of graduates in top jobs tell people with 20 years experience what to do as they have a qualification!

Madness.

Unis provide an excellent service to our society in some areas but are a complete waste of time for the majority of what they produce.

44

HughB,

Edinburgh 01/11/2007 09:27:33

This is purely a manufactured "quote" which has been pasted together by the hootsman so that they can blame Alex Salmond and the SNP.

The real statement was directed towards Scotlands tertiary education system, which has been under Labour control for around the 50 years which they have been in power, and under Westmincer control overall.

45

HughB,

Edinburgh 01/11/2007 09:35:07

Graduates will eventually pay more in tax, so will contribute more to te system, which should provide sufficient funds for all forms of education.

A problem with inviting overseas students to study here is that on graduating, if a high proportion of them move overseas again, then they take their skills and their future tax revenue away with them.

46

IainGlasgow,

01/11/2007 09:45:37

Considering he's probably worth several times the Scottish budget, perhaps Bill Gates could put his money where his mouth is and fund a couple universities himself.

47

Not A Unionist or Nationalist ©,

01/11/2007 09:46:02

I actually would like businesses to contribute to the funding of higher education. As it stands it is the public purse and the graduates themselves who are paying for the funding - businesses effectively contribute nothing unless they are involved in Research & Development. It seems to me that many businesses use the university system as a non-cost tool to weed out the wheat from the chaff.

That being said - I don't support the idea of businesses having a direct say in courses and institutions. Yes build up links to make sure courses relate to the real world and business demands but no to business-led propoganda.

I would like to see a tax on businesses that employ graduates - that would then focus the HE sector. Perhaps then we would not have the crazy rush into university - more non-university recruitment and on-the-job training would in my opinion be better.

My own degree was meaningless until I went out into the world of work - we need to get away from the idea that you have to have a degree to get a good job. We also have to value those who have learnt the skills on-th-job as highly as those who have degrees.

48

Calum10,

01/11/2007 09:46:15

Eck should be aware in any dealings with this man from Microsoft and a George Bush appointee. It's known as supping with the deil.

49

IainGlasgow,

01/11/2007 09:50:33

#17

Not to mention all the other bugs in Microsoft's products. Their approach is to rush it on to the market and then release patches as and when the software bugs are found so they let the users do the debugging work for them.

50

stonepark,

01/11/2007 09:56:32

I know how to make up the £168 million that universities need - stop buying Microsoft products and move to LINUX (software is free, licences are free, as easy to use as XP, can be put on as many computers as you want etc (I won't comment about VISTA as I would get banned).

51

gus1940,

edinburgh 01/11/2007 09:56:42

Could the low % of Scottish undergraduates be anything to do with the number of English students taking up places at Scottish Universities excluding Scots with the necessary entrance qualifications ?

52

Peter,

The fly on Bendy Wendy's wall 01/11/2007 10:04:41

OK 30+ years ago I benefited from a 'free' university education. Even then there was no way you could live on the 'grant'.

You had to find summer / winter work minimum and many also worked part time during the term. For medical and dental undergrads this became impossible as the level of clinical work was racked up. So even then most newly qualified doctors and dentists would have had sizeable overdrafts to get rid off compared to students doing other courses.

Have we been value for the money invested in us?

I could argue that we most certainly have given far more back to the common weal than many. In terms of taxation payments we will have repaid the 'investment' many times over. As GP's we have further created job opportunities within our practices and in a small way helped our local economies and there is the supply train business we also support.

That is why folk like Boudicea really get my goat as their prejudice screams out loud and clear.

53

The Strategist,

01/11/2007 10:07:57

There are either thirteen or fourteen universities in Scotland. We probably only need five or six.

In terms of R&D output they are extremely good. Unfortunately though the rate of commercialisation of that R&D is very poor. The lack of risk equity capital is the problem.

We have some of the biggest financial institutions on the planet based here but they won't put their hands in their very deep pockets to help grow the rest of the economy. As a result a large part of our R&D particularly in life sciences ends up in the hands of overseas companies.

If investment is not forthcoming then there is little point in continuing to fund the universities at the rate we do or indeed to churn out so many graduates.

54

Barnett Formula Admin,

01/11/2007 10:11:46

#53

1% of England domiciled students study in Scotland

7% of Scotland domiciled students study in England

0.60% of Englands population qualified to enter UK universities in 2007

0.52% of Scotlands population qualified to enter UK universities in 2007


15% more of England domiciled population enter university when compaired to the "iconic" scotlands figures.

Facts are there, get over it and move on.....

http://www.ucas.com/website/news/media_releases/2007/2007...

55

Alastair the First,

01/11/2007 10:12:57

Investment in education is just that - an investment. I do agree that links with industry are valuable, but I would hate to see the likes of Microsoft calling the shots for their own benefit. Their purpose is to make money and fair enough, but let their political input to decision making be on a level with everyone else's views.

56

Peter,

The fly on Bendy Wendy's wall 01/11/2007 10:16:53

Nurses - Degrees - Boudicea!

Numpty heid...... you just do not get the complexity of modern nursing do you?

Nurses don't just empty bed pans, look cute for the Consultant to pinch their bums and tend sweaty brows.

These days they have to understand complex physiological processes so they can identify critical changes in a patient's condition. They have to understand all the potential complexities, inter actions and reactions all the drugs used routinely may cause patients. Then there is the setting up and monitoring of all the bits of equipment that you see attached to patients and if you do not know anatomy you will end up sticking something where it does most harm.

Oh! and by the way that is why nurses don't clean wards any more its a bit like using a Rolls Royce to plough a field........ you just would not do it!

57

Peter,

The fly on Bendy Wendy's wall 01/11/2007 10:30:48

Boudicea - I was a dentist until working for the NHS until the excessive workload destroyed my heath... fact. I have a dentist pal who has worked as an NHS practitioner who has, at the age of 42, a major heart attack brought on by the stress of working for the NHS. He has been advised to return to NHS practice will kill him. Then a wee look at suicide figures by professional group in the UK may just persuade you that you have no clue as to what you are talking about.

You really are happy to swallow the Government line on GP doctors. Guess what? The whole point of the new GP contract was to enable GP doctors to do less but provide better care. Why? Because no newly qualified doctors were touching GP medicine with a ten foot barge pole. Why? Because GP's across the UK had poor morale and were jumping ship as soon as they could retire at 55. Then there is the wee problem of the EU 48 hour maximum week when most GP's were doing a minimum of 72.

The point of the new GP contract was to plug the leaks and try and encourage newly qualified doctors back into GP medicine. The classic way of doing this....better pay for fewer hours.

So the government can not blame the doctors as it is they who brought in the contract.... that's it, good old numpty Labour ... the peoples friend .... now how much more is Lothian Health Board paying for the ERI than it budgeted for? Whose great idea was PFI? ........... 147 million has become 1.2 billion ..... Oh! that must be Labour....

If Labour in Scotland has been blocked from such effective use of public finances in the past all I can say is that is one benefit of the Union!

58

Grandson of Winged Messenger,

01/11/2007 10:49:18

One of the reasons Scottish education is so historically renowned is because it has always enabled entry to those who excel regardless of their sosical status and background.

This means using public resources for the good of the public as a whole by funding students without question.

The microsoft man doesn't have an appreciation of the Scottish traditions in education and is probbaly looking at the situation from the point of view, simply, of who and what he is.

For once, I agree with Tweedmouth in that universities should be centre of excellence, not an educational free-for-all. They should be based on merit and, yes, elitism (which is not a bad thing where it relates to merit).

We should be taking only those with an aptitude for excellence into our universties and funding them with (as #1 says) serious money.

The SNP are right to pursue the reintroductrion of free education in Scotland. It is one of the cornerstones of Scottish education.

What we don't want is a system like the US where many hig achievers can't get places at universities cause they don't have the financial resources.

59

Peter,

The fly on Bendy Wendy's wall 01/11/2007 10:50:14

Boudicea.... you are talking a load of self justifying mince and you know it.

Recent surveys all show that patients say their medical professionals show high levels of care and empathy.

Here's the problem....PFI! Under a PFI contract the PFI contract holder appoints the cleaning contractors, negotiates the contract and its value. The PFI contract holder does the same for all the areas of maintenance of the 'building'. Now do you think they will be paying top dollar? Nope they are trying to maximise their margins.

An example: a NHS trust asked me to look at the problem of cleaning up blood spills and why it took so long. Talking to the nursing staff they told me it could take between 10 and 50 minutes for the cleaner who had been 'trained' to deal with blood spills to turn up.

Now the nurses were so cheesed off with the way things are run that they made clear they could clean it up but senior management had forbade them to do so because it was the PFI contractor's responsibility. Still with me Boudicea?

There was one specialised 'blood' cleaner between five surgical wards and the time allowed by her contract per blood spill was ten minutes. As the cleaner said, on what she was being paid, there was no point rushing to get the mess cleaned up.

Now the Health Board was paying the company I work for silly money per day to have me there to 'advise' them for something that one of their 'managers' could have done by simply walking around the wards.

Now here's the rub.... I advised them that what they needed to do was renegotiate the cleaning contract requirements with the PFI main contractor so that all the cleaners on the surgical wards were trained to deal with blood spills.

Their response... it will cost too much money to do that...... having just coughed up 6,000 pounds to the company I worked for..... Labour, PFI, standards... go on Boudicea tell us about the good old days all you like but we have to deal with now

60

Doh,

01/11/2007 10:57:58

#67 Peter

I have some sympathy with what you say but I am afraid Doctors are now being paid an obscene amount of money.

I know of several in their late 20s that are earning the best par of £100K - most ordinary people will never earn half that amount.

If Doctors and Dentists are under such great stress - yes they should work less hours but paying this amount is socially divisive and economically unsustainable in the longer term.

Oh for what it is worth the guy from Microsoft is a businessman trying to maximise his profits. I hope an expect that the Dear Leader will not fooled by his blatant lobbying.

61

Peter,

The fly on Bendy Wendy's wall 01/11/2007 11:05:25

Aye Boudicea.... things were much better in the days of Tannoch Brae.... "Dr Finlay is that an anal thermometer in your pocket.... Aye Janet; some bum's got my pencil."

Well except maybe for the maternal deaths per live births, survival rates for one year olds, TB, typhoid, tetanus....... Aye the good old days when nurses emptied bed pans, folk died in droves but at least the wards were clean.

62

Peter,

The fly on Bendy Wendy's wall 01/11/2007 11:10:36

Doh ... can you tell me where they work? I would be tempted out of retirement for that sort of money and stuff my health! ;-)

63

Arnold Codger,

01/11/2007 12:02:57

And where is the The Scotsman article on the SNPs housing initiative leaked yesterday...

The could write a postive article about them could they, no the pluck this one out. I really do come here for laugh everyday.

64

Ayrshire Scot™,

01/11/2007 12:04:04

78 Boudica

quite right - but I think it was a Scot (Lister) who pioneered aseptic surgery and disinfection.

59 - The Strategist - spot on. But our universities do not have access to capital to effectively commercialise some o fthe excellent research. Cambridge and the larger American universities are miles ahead, with benefits from trust cash used to kick start commercial spin offs. Our universities need an injection to at least start effective commercialisation programmes/ spin off companies.

65

Peter,

The fly on Bendy Wendy's wall 01/11/2007 12:04:13

Boudicea - why don't you set up a voluntary ward cleaning organisation? I mean go out and do something and stop whinging.

66

loose cannon,

N.Lanarkshire 01/11/2007 12:42:56

Meths.
If they are referring to the same Alex Salmond who had a successful spell with the Royal Bank of Scotland as their senior financial and oil advisor then (1) has obviously been dosing on their nom-de-plume when they label Alex Salmond thick for an economist. Though I do agree about the wasted billions, especially the billions wasted on fighting Bush's war, something Alex has never tolerated and will put an end to the moment we get true independence.

67

watcher4,

Edinburgh 01/11/2007 12:48:22

Who says Salmond is an Economist? You obviously haven`t read the SNP Manifesto. He is now paying with public money, for the students who voted SNP.

68

subrosa,

01/11/2007 13:02:56

Peter

Unfortunately I've been admitted to hospital a few times this year. On the first admission when I required a nurse I was told my other patients "You'll wait and wait". They were right. Over and over again that happened with patients and some were left to lie in wet bedding for hours. Don't speak to me about wonderful nurses, they are so few and far between they're nearly invisible. You can have the most highly qualified engineer but they are not necessarily the best for the job. Same with nurses. As for NHS dentists I have no sympathy for you. My dentist used to be NHS then I had no option but to pay a private insurance company. He now works 4 days a week and his standard of work is variable. I have no option to use him other than travel 40 miles to the next one. Doctors and dentists are well paid.......compare yourself to an Army officer doing far more hours than yourself under extraordinary conditions 24 hours a day. Aren't you lucky?

69

Mr Bob Dobolina,

ethenpee and fweedom 01/11/2007 13:34:22

#1 - Whats it they say the only people who economists are simmilar too is psychopaths.


"It has been found that the only people who really fit the simplified mathematical model of self-interested rational behaviour at all times are economists and psychopaths."

70

Mr Bob Dobolina,

ethenpee and fweedom 01/11/2007 13:40:50

Thinking of which is Alex Salmond not originaly an economist...... OHHH BOTHER........ :-)

Unfortunately advice from an organisation such as Microsoft is welcome but they need lessons in fairness. if Microsoft had it's way students in the computing department would only be trained in Microsoft products; Not Unix or Linux or Solaris. They would only be allowed to use microsoft hardware and utter microsoft mantras. Every student would be pushed to buy this gadget and that to link into the universities systems. Making the whole process a marketing excercise for Microsoft.

71

Hotel Yorba,

Glasgow 01/11/2007 14:29:18

Getting business more involved in funding would be good, because irrelevent courses such as media studies, sports management simply wouldn't get funded and therefore would be banished from universities. No taxpayer should have to fund these courses, as the present situation allows. How can a
student graduate with a Bsc in Media Studies, on a programme having modules such - "The British soap opera between 1950 - 1975 ", why is taxpayer funding this at all, since there is no common benefit. All it does is help fund but devalue those univerities

72

Media 1,

cape town 01/11/2007 14:39:02

The Microsoft man is right, we all know it. Salmond will need to take advice from a lot of people over the next 4 years. He is naive, we all know that, he has much to learn, we all know that, he is a dreamer, we all know that.

But its not to late for him to learn from men who are more qualified than he.

University is most important, but it cannot be supplied by the majority on the basis that one mans vision for power is to coax the masses into believing he is a good samaratan. No politician is a good samaratan, and the quicker those blinded by SNP spin realise that the better.

Salmond is naive, not because he doesnt understand that free university wont work. (He knows it cant work) But because his tactics in gaining the support he craves reek of political novice.

73

Iain Ritchie,

São Paulo. 01/11/2007 14:39:25

Salmond should listen to Mr. Gates and
forget Mr. Trump before he attempts
to set up a Disneyworld in Scotland!

74

The Sensible One,

01/11/2007 14:39:43

91. watcher4, Edinburgh / 12:48pm 1 Nov 2007

"Who says Salmond is an Economist? You obviously haven`t read the SNP Manifesto. He is now paying with public money, for the students who voted SNP."

Totally agree.

75

barbour,

perthshire 01/11/2007 14:45:06

Here we go again,some one has the audacity to adversely criticise the SNP and they who do criticise are naturally wrong,ill informed,thick,only an economist etc etc.
The funding of our few "good" uni's,pathetically few by the way,threatens their very existance.The best staff are as we speak leaving or preparing to leave for posts south of the border.Once they leave then the best potentialy students will not apply so the downward spiral continues.
Fund the best universities and downgrade the remaining to "colleges"serving the lesser challenged

76

The Sensible One,

01/11/2007 14:53:44

Media 1

"Salmond is naive, not because he doesnt understand that free university wont work. (He knows it cant work) But because his tactics in gaining the support he craves reek of political novice."

It worked when I went to University. Maybe there are too many people doing Media degrees.

77

S MacLeod,

01/11/2007 15:18:30

Microsoft trying to tax another countries education system again!

What f***ing idiot made a Microsoft vice-president a patron of the University of the Highlands and Islands?

The first thing that should be done is to kick that turd out and change every machine used in education to Open Source which will drop the micro$oft tax.

79

The Sensible One,

01/11/2007 15:33:07

If you don't like microsoft, buy a computer with NOTHING on it and go to "Ubuntu." You'll get it at http://www.ubuntu.com/

It has everything microsoft has and is totally free.

80

Queen D,

Glasgow 01/11/2007 16:02:07

There are danges in taking BIG business money to fund anything at all in education.
I don't like the influence that can be brought to bear on subject choices.
If support was given as a gift,then it might just be acceptable.
I too,was lucky enough to get a grant,I still had to work during the holidays to help my self through the course and did the waitress,hospital auxilliary,shop assistant bit.All of which I enjoyed and learned from and would'nt have missed for the world.

81

Mr Bob Dobolina,

ethenpee and fweedom 01/11/2007 16:03:12

#100, 101, 102,103,104 I AM PROUD!!!!!

Taxing the education system like they did with the woeful MCSE! Starting the whole industry in the 'niche' products of vendor certification. Which bought us everything from install real player too expert in winzip!

Offering companies discounts on their products if so many engineers had this cert or that.

aka money for tired old rope!

China switched to linux and open source , they seem to be do fine. I remember rolling out quite a few open source networks all over the land and they need a lot less maintainance in comparison to their microsoft comparibles. The lnux desktop is a cracking allternative if you do not want to suffer the micro soft taxation of enterprise.

I would recommend The Scottish goverment looks at savings in it's infrastructure. By rolling out linux desktops and servers. Cutting the need for Microsofts very expensive ones bit by bit.

Guess I wont ever be working for microsoft again!

82

Mr Bob Dobolina,

ethenpee and fweedom 01/11/2007 16:05:49

"Japanese Schools May Switch to Linux"

From school forge.

thanks for link s mc leod

83

Peter,

The fly on Bendy Wendy's wall 01/11/2007 16:27:10

Boudicea... interestingly I have been.

I have been trying to persuade NHS Scotland to completely rethink NHS dental provision, I have a Holyrood petition running on the subject due to be heard for the umpteenth time in three years by the committee. The reality ... nobody appears to be interested in creating a new opportunity to provide public dental health that is effective. The politicians are feart, the civil servants feel threatened and the dental profession is so demoralised it could not care less.

I have not worked as an adviser within the NHS since the day of that meeting back in 2005 ... I just do not see the point.

The reality is I changed career direction after that and now work with young people in the UK running leadership programs and in Nepal where I have helped set up a hospital to treat children with cleft palates and my next Nepal project is to free young girls from indentured servitude (aka slavery).

What you can not accept is it is not the doctors, nurses and dentists that are the problem it is the political system and Byzantine management practises of the NHS that dis-empower the front line staff to the point where they do the bare minimum.

The UK has got to get that the NHS has used up and abused a lot of the goodwill of the people who work for it and the people who work for the NHS have had enough.

The evidence? Staff shortages; rising numbers of sick days; wage demands; poor retention of staff; lowering standards and it all points to major leadership, funding and management problems in the NHS.

The NHS now needs re-inventing and a new contract with the people it serves because the myth of 'free at the point of delivery' is now such a big lie as to be untenable.

84

Kung-Half-Fu,

Cathay Prolific 01/11/2007 16:54:09

#104. The Sensible One

Thanks for the Ubuntu tip. It looks ideal for my purposes. Big question: does it support DOS programs? I bought a new laptop recently and am scuppered when abroad for using fast, efficient DOS software by the frustratingly awful Vista. I'd thought about installing Linux for many years; Ubuntu looks like a good compromise.