Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement


Hundreds learn of jobs bombshell by video link

Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date:
12 January 2007
NCR cash-machine factory in Dundee to close with loss of 650 jobs Ohio-based multinational shifting manufacturing to Hungary Dundee reeling from succession of recent job losses
Key quote
"This is a very difficult but necessary proposal in response to changing market conditions. Our competition is also moving its manufacturing operations to lower cost areas." - ALLAN VALENTINE, NCR

Story in full On the way to work they were buffeted by gale-force winds and rain. Once there they were battered by a different force of nature - the global economy.

The bombshell announcement that 650 jobs were to be axed at the NCR cash- machine factory in Dundee was far more devastating than even the most pessimistic worker had forecast.

The jobs blow, revealed by a video message recorded at the company's base in Dayton, Ohio, ripped the heart out of what was left of Dundee's once-thriving manufacturing sector.

In its heyday, the 60-year-old plant employed 6,500 men and women, producing one in three of Europe's hole-in-the-wall cash machines. But the firm said the Wester Gourdie plant could no longer compete in the marketplace it once dominated.

Production will be switched to a new NCR plant near the Hungarian capital, Budapest, where the work of Dundee employees will be done by cheap Eastern European labour - employed at up to a tenth of the pay rates on Tayside.

There are mounting fears the knock-on effect of the jobs blow - the worst to hit Dundee since the Timex factory closure - could result in a further 1,000 jobs being axed among suppliers and other businesses in the area, already reeling from a succession of job losses.

Last year, the supermarket giant Tesco announced plans to axe more than 400 jobs in Dundee after its decision to build a distribution depot in Livingston. Earlier this week, the energy services company Wood Group announced 50 job losses at its Dundee turbine services operation.

The city's gloom was in stark contrast to the upbeat launch, 56 miles away in Edinburgh, of a groundbreaking stem-cell research unit that will employ hundreds of scientists and other staff.

And the news earlier in the week that Dundee-based financial services group Alliance Trust was planning a £14 million headquarters in the city centre, creating 160 jobs, seemed quite forgotten.

Assurances that 100 manufacturing posts would remain at NCR in Dundee, together with 600 posts in engineering and advanced development, services support and marketing cut little ice

And it was hardly a day to recite those discrete and invisible benefits of globalisation - falling prices for household electronic equipment, cheaper clothes from the Far East, a greater array of affordable gadgetry. None of it eases the pain for the unskilled workers left behind in Dundee, many of whom were already preparing to make the trip to the job centre.

Inside the factory known as "The Cash", women wept openly. But the overriding mood was of anger and a sense of betrayal by a company which, only a year ago, had assured Tayside workers that the opening of the new plant in Hungary would make no difference to the Dundee operation.

Some furious workers refused to listen any more as the management tried, amid growing shouts and jeers, to explain the reasons behind their decision.

George Devlin, 42, who has worked in the company's kit and make-up department for three years, was the first to storm back out through the gates. And there was no hiding his rage at the way the workforce had been treated.

Mr Devlin, a father of three from Fintray, said: "There is just total anger and disgust at the management. Last year, they told us a barefaced lie that when the Hungary plant was opened, it was never going to affect Dundee whatsoever. But now they are saying they are closing the operations altogether because it's costing too much and they lost £42 million last year.

"They are going to Eastern Europe - Hungary or wherever they can get cheap labour.

"I walked out of the meeting because I didn't want to listen to it any more - lies, lies and more lies."

He went on "There are people in there who have worked here all their lives and they are getting treated like this. There are women in there crying. There was a woman in there who has worked for 36 years and she couldn't even speak when she tried to ask a question. She was breaking her heart crying. The future for me and everyone else is bleak - very bleak."

He added: "It was great job with great conditions and great wages. I am paid £8.75 an hour for unskilled labour and there are tradesmen in Dundee who are not getting that."

John Millar, 47, who worked on the main assembly line for 22 years, said he was "completely shattered". Mr Millar, whose wife, Ellen, works in the NCR office, said: "It's soul-destroying and a sad day for Dundee.

We've done everything this company has asked us to do. We've never been militant and been on strike or anything. We've worked the overtime and the different shift patterns they asked us to do over the years to keep this place going. And this us our reward."

Jennifer Brannan, 46, who has worked on the production line for five years, said: "People are really upset and angry and swearing in there. I'm just waiting for my friends to come out before we go down to the job centre."

John Letford, Dundee's Lord Provost, who once worked at the factory, said: "This is a terrible blow for the employees, their families and for the city of Dundee. It really is heartbreaking for them all.

"Like so many people in Dundee, I worked for the company, but that was in happier times when there was a much larger workforce and none of the threats of losing your job because factories had been created in some other part of the world to do exactly the work that you and your colleagues were doing, and doing well."

Allan Valentine, NCR's director of manufacturing operations in Dundee, said the job losses had been caused by the company's plans to realign its ATM global manufacturing operations.

"This is a very difficult but necessary proposal in response to changing market conditions," he said. "Our competition is also moving its manufacturing operations to lower cost areas.

"Despite our efforts to take cost out of our operations, it costs us more money to build ATMs on a unit-by-unit basis in Dundee than in any of our other manufacturing plants. We cannot continue with our current strategy.

"We do understand that these proposed changes in our manufacturing operations will bring a challenging time for affected employees and we will be outlining a comprehensive employee-support programme to NCR employee representatives."

Meanwhile, Birds Eye announced it was to close its frozen-food factory in Hull, which makes fish fingers and other products, with the loss of nearly 500 jobs later this year.

Derek Simpson, the general secretary of the Amicus trade union, said: "This is a black day for manufacturing."

Workers storm out in disgust at 'lies, lies and more lies'


FURIOUS workers at Scotland's largest cash machine manufacturing plant stormed out of their factory yesterday after being told, through a transatlantic video link, that 650 NCR employees in Dundee are to lose their jobs .

They accused the management of the Ohio-based multinational of a cynical betrayal and treating them with contempt after the company announced plans to switch manufacturing of hole-in-the-wall ATMs to a new plant in Hungary and to other factories in Beijing and India.

It was a devastating blow to the Tayside economy already reeling from job losses at the city's Tesco distribution base, the Michelin factory and the Wood Group.

George Devlin, 42, who has worked at NCR for three years, was the first employee to leave the mass meeting where the workforce were shown a video in which NCR's Dayton-based chief executive Bill Nuti spelled out the reasons behind NCR's bombshell decision.

He declared: "I walked out of the meeting because I didn't want to listen to it any more - lies, lies and more lies. All we got was a video from the head man in America saying: 'I am sorry I can't be there and I have sent somebody else over to tell you the news'."

Derek Shaw, 49, an assembly operator who has worked at the NCR plant for 17 years, said he was "disgusted" at the treatment of a loyal workforce.

He said: "There was a video link and the company's chief executive appeared on the screen. That's the first time I have seen him in 17 years [of] working for the company. It's just a disgrace the way we've been treated."

The trade union Amicus accused the company of reneging on previous assurances on the future of the Dundee site.

Gillian McKay, the union's regional officer, claimed: "Only 14 months ago NCR's president and chief executive, Bill Nuti, said he was 'one million per cent' committed to the company's Dundee operation and that the plant opened in Hungary would have little or no impact on the Dundee site. We are appalled by this announcement and our members are justifiably angry."

Last night, as local politicians expressed fears that another 1,000 jobs could be lost in the city as a result of the effective end of manufacturing at the plant after six decades, Nicol Stephen, Scotland's Enterprise Minister, announced the formation of a rapid reaction force to address the Dundee jobs crisis.

He said: "This is a very serious blow to the individuals involved, their families and the city of Dundee. I am announcing the formation of a rapid reaction team to give support to everyone involved. It is very important we give as much support as we can to the 650 individuals involved."

NCR, which plans to retain 700 posts in manufacturing, advanced development and in service-support operation in Dundee, blamed a "changing market environment" and competitive pressures for the decision.

But Stewart Hosie, the MP for Dundee East, said: "The mood of the people I have spoken to so far has been unbridled anger. People have been left hurt and devastated."

Fortune built on making ATMs


KNOWN as "The Cash", National Cash Register, or NCR, is a well-established part of Dundee life.

Like jute, jam and journalism, the manufacturer of cash machines has provided regular employment for many in the city for the past 50 years.

The United States-based company first began operations in the city in 1945, manufacturing cash registers.

But it was after a Scot invented the first automated teller machine, or ATM, in the early 1960s that the fortunes of NCR really took off.

John Shepherd-Barron, from Tain in Ross-shire, came up with the idea of the auto-teller after becoming frustrated at not being able to access his own money at weekends.

He installed the world's first ATM at a branch of Barclays Bank in London in 1967.

NCR soon became one of the leading manufacturers of cash machines, providing ATMs for 100 countries.

At its height, the company employed 7,000 people on nine sites in Dundee and today employs more than 1,300.

NCR has also led research and development from the city, building a £20 million laboratory for the engineering development of cash machines called The Discovery Centre in 2002.

Over the next ten years, it is expected that the number of regular users of cash machines will increase by an estimated 40 million, but the rate at which new machines are being installed is expected to decline because of card fraud.

How manufacturing sector measures up in Hungary


SCOTLAND

Unemployment: 5.2 per cent
Population: 5,094,800
Public holidays: 8
Average weekly manufacturing wage: £350-£400
Total area: 78,772sq km
GDP per capita: £13,133
In 2005, total Scottish exports (excluding intra-UK trade) were provisionally estimated to be £17.5 billion, of which 70 per cent (£12.2 billion) were attributable to manufacturing.
Scotland's primary exports include whisky, electronics and financial services.

HUNGARY

Unemployment: 7.2 per cent
Population: 9,981,334
Public holidays: 12
Average weekly manufacturing wage: £50
Total area: 93,030sq km
GDP per capita: £8,377 (2005)
Private sector accounts for over 80 per cent of GDP.
Exports: £32 billion (2005)
Its main exports are machinery and equipment (61.1 per cent), other manufactured goods (28.7 per cent), food products (6.5 per cent), raw materials (2 per cent), fuels and electricity (1.6 per cent).

Page 1 of 1

 
1

Faye,

Scotland 12/01/2007 01:35:12

That's fine. Sell up, make folks redundant and move East.

When will politicians stop such companies selling their products in the West?

If you don't want our services, then you shouldn't be allowed to trade or enjoy selling your wares here in the UK.

Eastern jobs, eastern markets.

Goodbye and good riddance.

Perk up Mrs woman of 36 years service. These people aren't worth tears.

How many extra shares did Mr Valentine get for closing down the Dundee operation?

2

scottwebb.co.uk,

12/01/2007 01:35:55

Another blow to Scottish jobs, and what a way to be told......Disgusting

3

The Strategist,

12/01/2007 01:39:09

This is indeed bad news for Dundee but the ATM story is even more depressing.

How is it that after being invented by a Scot we didn't end up having our own NCR? It's a classic Scottish tale.

Instead of having an HQ company here that develops ATM technology but brings in manufacturing income from all over the world we've got just another branch office.

We really need to get a grip if we're going to compete globally.

4

scottwebb.co.uk,

12/01/2007 01:51:32

Our politicians are about as much use as breast implants on a bull....why.....because no matter how many people lose their jobs.....as long as the politicians are on board for The European super state, they're jobs are safe.
All they're good at is creating ways and new laws telling us what we can and cannot do.....but hey thats easy....WE LET THEM.

5

scottwebb.co.uk,

12/01/2007 01:56:46

Dam my grammar and spelling but stuff like this really makes my blood boil, we have the most useless bunch of total selfish, career orientated at the expense of the people, blood suckers in power

6

scottwebb.co.uk,

12/01/2007 02:00:06

They have all the moral fibre of Lampreys

7

Ricky,

12/01/2007 02:16:38

The brave new world - free enterprise - start a rival company against the NCR toss pots - use your skills do it better and more efficiently - don’t give a sh*t -

Look at it as 650 opportunities to STUFF NCR - they have stuffed you ! ! !

Don’t let the press get you down - if they reported 5 million idiots still working - it would put a different slant on things - remember this my friends - the press are comtrolled by the same people who would gladly put 650 people out of work ! ! !

8

Huistean baxter,

Canada 12/01/2007 02:17:09

Same thing is happening here and in the US.
Companies are moving operations to China, India
and so forthwhere it is cheaper to produce. Note that the retail price never goes down in the stores,
just more profits for the companies.

9

scottwebb.co.uk,

12/01/2007 02:28:41

Its deliberate and by design but until people switch off the PROPAGANDA PROGRAMMER called television and go do some research on the subject .....it will continue......apathy and stupidity is what lets them away with what they're planning

10

George in Kansas (USA),

12/01/2007 03:03:16

A sure fire way to tell when management is lying to you is when you can see their lips are moving.

In the States, layoffs and firings are traditionally announced just before Christmas so the company can save the Christmas and New Years holiday pay they would otherwise be liable for.

Good luck in the new economy.

11

Chuckster,

USA 12/01/2007 03:16:13

9 Don't forget Mexico.

11 Shareholder report time. Looks good on the books.

Another case of big business screwing the little guy. I doubt they'll lose sleep over the way they told the workers either.

12

Alex Mc Morland,

Perth .Western Australia 12/01/2007 03:42:24

Why don't those people in Dundee start thinking of emigrating as we did in 1965 since coming here we have never looked back never been out of work and our children are alot better off than if we had stayed in the UK . I am a Scot and I never regret what we have done it was hard to start with leaving family and friends behind but we would never have had there what we have now it is something to think about and to what the future holds for you.

13

plok,

12/01/2007 04:03:04

Scottwebb - any more waffle you want to add or are you going leave some space for others ?

14

allatsea,

12/01/2007 05:20:10

sad to say it is the norm these days, every workforce is being affected by the move to employ cheap labour from the Central European and Asian nations.

Will it go full circle?, we will train these people and they will take away our jobs, they will become the skilled workforce and will demand higher wages, sound familiar??
The company i work for recently told us that if we did not train the 3rd country personnel that will eventually replace us, then there would not be a place for us with the company!!!!
Yes it took us about a nanosecond to believe our management would make such a statement too,
and yes it is an American multinational.

nuff said.

15

Eric D,

Los Angeles 12/01/2007 05:28:32

Speaking from experience , when the dust is settled
there will be no compatable jobs to replaced the existing ones. The tech meltdown in the early part of
2000 led to a lot of experienced engineers fleeing Scotland if only to maintain some dignity, as experienced graduate Engineers refused to work in call centres and the like - they had no other options.
After the meltdown , the politicians stated that their
policies were successful when they discovered that unemployment had not risen around "silicon valley"
. It was later pointed out that people had simply left the area.

Ireland seems to be the place for quality jobs. A good living can be had for those ready to move. Unfortunately , Scotland has turned into a low skill economy under New Labour. 1.5 million manufacturing jobs lost ( in UK) since they took over. Productivity gains are abysmal . Every succesful economy needs a strong manufacturing
base ; the Swiss , Germans ,Japanese and others know this.
Dont get confused with the current "skills shortage"
that the Poles are filling, This is just sympomatic
of a low skilled , low value branch economy. The real solution is push the country further up the food
chain ie high skilled , high quality R&D based economy instead of letting it slide further.

16

Stuarty purty,

Kuala Lumpur 12/01/2007 05:40:47

"It was great job with great conditions and great wages. I am paid £8.75 an hour for unskilled labour and there are tradesmen in Dundee who are not getting that."

Maybe this says it all!

17

donald,

weegieland 12/01/2007 05:59:34

Another dodgy DVD.

Another dodgy cash register.

Another Dodgy Labour Government.

18

GEEDEE,

MACAU 12/01/2007 06:01:02

SORRY ABOUT THE NEWS BUT AS A FORMER DUNDONIAN,I ASK WHAT BLAME IN ALL OF THIS CAN BE LAID AT THE DOOR OF EXCESSIVE AND AGGRESSIVE UNIONISM WHICH DESTROYED MANY THINGS OVER THE PAST 30 YEARS IN TIMEX,NCR ETC.
tIME FOR A NEW APPROACH WITH INDEPENDENCE AND STRONGER WORK ETHIC IF IT STILL EXISTS.brace YOURSELVES SCOTS,be proud

19

Mcsnagpile,

Vietnam 12/01/2007 06:10:01

Had to leave Scotland to work as an expatriate over 30 years ago. My costs in Scotland compared with many more climatic and sociable amenable countries are horrendous for zero returns. I am the only person in my office that has not left the UK. I can not blame NCR for hunting the Sun, I should join them.

20

Anne,

12/01/2007 06:21:26

It's not just the Dundee jobs which have gone - manufacturing plants in the USA and Brazil have also been hit.
Hungary will enjoy NCR jobs for just as long as the wage bill stays down, then they'll be off again, chasing a country willing to keep the hourly rate for workers low.

21

Pete39,

Tassy 12/01/2007 06:22:50

Most of the wealthier countries in the world suffer from this. In Tasmania, a fruit and vegetable growing country, the multi nationals are attempting to source their vegetables from China and Vietnam. There are few folk in Australia who wish to buy those vegetables but it becomes more difficult to recognise them in the supermarkets. There must be some reason for this, but for the life of me, other than put a small increase in profits, I can not figure it out.

22

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 07:05:47

Dundee is a Ghost Town most people walk around with a glaikit look on there face wondering whats going on.

NCR is a huge loss to the city there will be tears and bloodshed this weekend.

The whole problem is our government that want the "UK" to be the educated centre of industry where our engineers design and innovate and thicker countries do the labour at a fraction of the labour cost "modern day slavery" by Slave Labour.

23

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 07:09:42

Slave labour's ideaology is all very well but what about the normal "UK" citizen who just wants to earn money and doesn't care about education because they do exist.

I suppose they are the people Labour shun and look down upon as they do not fit into there masterplan!!!

They will be the ones who dont get the specislist attention at school, they will be the people this weekend drinking 'Buckfast' blighting the face of the "UK"

Time for Independence and time for a fairer world economy of scale.

24

Finnking,

Obviously on Pluto 12/01/2007 07:20:07

Who remembers Burroughs (now Unisys)? Kirkton Campus, 800 people designing and manufacturing cheque sorting machines (sticking Made in USA labels on them- true!, tax payer paying for building and......factory closed down. Ferranti? Various coal mines? Aluminium? Steel?

If you have an economic system with share holders who are not related to the product, labour cost must reduce to maintain share value.
Share holders want 8-1+% return pa. If they don't get it, the share price reduces and the company value declines. THey can gain more market share, or reduce costs.

Solution while remaining within such an economic system: LEss labour intensive industry.
Real Solution: get rid of government, work in communities, trade goods and services with other colectives. Yes, we may not have iPods and ATMs but we have been living in a fairy tale for the past 100 years or so. "Luxury items" aren't so luxurious, really.

25

Kennybhoy,

Aberdeen 12/01/2007 07:22:56

We have kindly opened the gates to our Euro "Allies" so all the Hungarians are emigrating here to the UK....so who's gonna do the work in Budapest? Maybe we should all do a mass exodux to Hungary? I hear they do great goulash!

26

W Smith,

Middle East 12/01/2007 07:24:55

This is really bad news but hardly surprising.

Its not just the 'low' salaries in other countries that are the problem. Its the corporation tax that's driving a nail into the coffin of Scotland's manufacturing industry.

Some Corporation Tax examples:

Estonia 0%
Dubai 0%
Ireland 12.5%
Hungary 16%
Slovakia and Poland 18%
Scotland 30%

This is a no-brainer.

Is it just pure coincidence that most of these economies are booming?

In Scotland we have a very nice cosy Public Sector that is very kind to itself and we ..sorry...you are paying through the nose for it with higher taxes.

The Scottish Labour party have never really understood a thing called 'mobility'. You can squeeze old-age pensioners for more council tax but if you put too much tax on to private investors and private companies then they just get up and leave and go to other countries like Ireland and Hungary. That's mobility!

If there is going to be another £2billion pounds spent on teachers salaries who is going to help pay for it through payment of taxes? Not NCR, not Lexmarx, not Irving Welch, not.....

(U2 recently took their money out of Ireland to avoid tax - thats after Bono lecturing us at the Labour party conference on how "we" had to do more for third world countries - nice one!)

27

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 07:28:25

"UK" Labour not fit for purpose!

Wonder if Eastern European labour is fit for purpose.

28

Media 1,

cape town 12/01/2007 07:37:16

#3 dick: I agree with you!

Scotland has a lot to answer for in terms of her economic state.

A Scot as you say invented the ATM, yet we do not have our own NCR..The telephone is another Scots invention, yet we do not have an AT&T. The television, yet no global brand names like Panasonic. The tyre, yet no global dominance in the tyre industry or the other industries to which our fellow Scots contributed to so brialliantly!!!

When will we learn?

29

brin,

livingston village 12/01/2007 07:39:44

Great way to be told, by video!, not man enough to come across themselves.

If they [ NCR] have received any tax or inducments recently they should be made to pay them back into an emplyees fund

As for the bare faced lies about the Hungarian operation haveing no effect well did Mr. Valentine and his staff know about the lies? were they willing partners in the lies, try and find out the truth did he get extra ££$$ to lie to the workforce
Scum if they did??

30

GraniteCity,

12/01/2007 07:40:33

Why aren't we allowed to replace our politicians with cheap European ones ....after all if everyone's jobs are up for grabs with cheaper labour (nae pun) then why should politicians be exempt. I'm sure the threat of being kicked out would soon focus their views.
Anyway if all these Eastern Europeans are coming across in droves to the UK to to fill our 'skills' shortage (I know this is not the case with NCR but its a thought) then who the heck is left to work over there now. Didn't I see an article last month about the Polish govt begging people to stay as now they were no longer able to attract manufacturing/heavy industry to move there as there was no fecker left.

31

,

12/01/2007 07:50:13
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 279144, Article id was mapped to record!
32

Stuarty purty,

Kuala Lumpur 12/01/2007 07:51:17

Well said #27, W Smith. That is why Irelands economy is booming. 12.5% corporation tax.

The Irish seem to understand about mobility. The problem in Scotland is there are too many spongers who want everything on a plate and paid for by other peoples labours.

5% unemployment and having to bring in Poles to keep the country running? Some people need to get off their backsides.

33

Kennybhoy,

Aberdeen 12/01/2007 07:51:27

We should all give away our jobs to our eastern friends, don on welly boots and plant a sh*t-load of trees.....we'd all be living in poverty but at least our CO2 emissions would be nul and...think of the feel-good factor!!! Chuckle chortle..!!

34

Eric D,

12/01/2007 07:55:27

#20 - Thats what they call "The dash to the bottom" So how long before Vietnam costs are too high .
If Switzerland with a population of 6 million can succeed why can't Scotland

35

Aroha,

Totaranui, New Zealand 12/01/2007 08:06:52

Can't see what the fuss is about. Someone in Scotland wants 8.75 British pounds an hour for unskilled labour. Someone else, somewhere else, is happy to take less. Delighted, I dare say. The oners of NCR (you and me, in our pension plans) are entitled to make a choice, no? And the story deserves to be balanced by coverage of the Eastern Europeans who'll be dancing a jig.

If this didn't go on 100 times a day all over the world the poor people of our countries would all be much poorer. Maybe genuinely poor. And it's exactly the disgusting refusal of the EU and the US to do same with sub-Saharan Africa that keeps that continent in the poverty it's in.

Aside from all o' that, I visited Dundee in the early 80s and unless something radical's happened, I'd say that this, together with new EU freedom of labour rules, presents an outstanding opportunity for those made redundant to apply for the same jobs in the new factory. Same job, probably same purchasing power with your wage, BUT you don't have to live in Dundee.

36

Steve99,

Workers in Dundee 12/01/2007 08:11:04

I really hate to sound like a Tory, but there is no doubt that employing people in Dundee is a tough job. In my experience most of them want to work ideally for the Council, decent wages, no effort required.

If this was a one off I wouldn't say it, but it is so prevalent that many companies just avoid Dundee.

One business owner I was speaking to said if any company had labour problems in Dundee it was their own fault. Why? "For going there in the first place" he said. He had been there, done it, got the T shirt.

Apologies to all hard working folk in Dundee, but until the reality and perception of employing people in Dundee is changed with, nothing will improve.

37

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 08:13:30

#37 Aroha.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha, unless I missed something unskilled labour in Dundee requires £8.75 an hour to put food on the table for the wee anes, while paying astronomical council tax demands and the extra energy bill cost as government and energy companies pass the extra cost of combating C02 emissions onto lesser mortals namely us.

In the meantime NCR ar crapping themselves at the thought of a takeover from other companies that bite the moral bullit and go to foreign countries with cheaper labour to maximise profits and increase ther corporate spending power.

38

Kennybhoy,

Aberdeen 12/01/2007 08:14:23

#37..Aroha..you talk sh*te unfortunately...why the hell did you bring up Africa? This article is about the EU..not the poor from that continent..anyway, why should we feel morally obliged to help the Africans? Everyone knows that most of the relief sent there is used to fund their civil wars...I don't see why the people of Dundee need to suffer because a bunch of power-crazy maniacs from Africa can't be f*cked to look after their own people...
charity begins at home I'm afraid..plus I am sick fed-up of funding useless charities

So Hungary won the contract..fair game to them..we'll win it back in a few years time when the quality slips down the plug hole..

39

CJO,

Tunisia 12/01/2007 08:14:42

#27 W smith - you forgot to add the additional 20% on corporation tax for profits made by oil companies in the UKCS, taking it up to 50% for one of the UK's biggest earners. And of course, the bank roll for independence.

Cost of lifting oil and gas abroad $2 per boe equivalent. cost in the UK minimum $8. So, as a corporate exec do you spend 4 times as much to exploit UKCS or do you get bigger returns from other places with less tax pain? Well I know the answer to that, thats why I'm in North Africa. And its a sunny, 21 degrees.

40

Gordon,

Edinburgh 12/01/2007 08:14:54

Labour were saying the other week that an independent Scotland would be like an Eastern European state - maybe they meant we would have jobs!

41

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 08:15:55

#Steve 29

You obviously have never been to Dundee, most people want to work for the council because thats all thats left and hopefully more secure than any other jobs in Dundee.

42

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 08:20:35

That should have been #Steve 99

43

Kennybhoy,

Aberdeen 12/01/2007 08:28:04

Gordon #42..maybe it meant we could all wander in and out of any country in the EU at our leisure and sponge off their Government.

44

Aroha,

Totaranui, New Zealand 12/01/2007 08:33:14

#39 Scott - Fair enough, but developed economies like Scotland shouldn't view unskilled labour as a career. Something to do in summer hols at college or something, but no basis for bringing up kids. Unskilled labour rates with a family in most 'western' countries means you qualify for welfare because it's not a normal situation (and shouldn't be encouraged e.g. by the state attempting to retain the work in the country through further subsidy from the taxes of others doing more profitable work).

#40 Khennybhoy - Awan'bileyerhied. This is exactly the same as the Africa question. Refusing to buy maize from Africa because you require (through regulation) Europeans to buy EU maize, makes food more expensive for people in the EU and forces the African farmer into poverty. That the EU then turns round and offers 'aid' (aid that it knows will be stolen by the rulers of those countries) is beyond satire, so I won't even start.

The question of Dundee vs. Hungarian labour is exactly the same - there's general benefit when trade is free, general loss when it's not.

Finally - I toured Scotland extensively in the early 80s and it was wonderful.

45

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 08:37:51

#46 Aroha

Im an Architectectural Technician whos run his own manufacturing business, been a surveyor and a Health & Safety Officer. What exactly are you trying to say about citizens that just want to earn money by hard graft, and unfortunately possibly at know snobbery to them aren't of the mental disposition to be an Engineer Accountant Lawyer Doctor or any other Educated Snobbery.

Normal people are not to be looked down upon for wanting to earn money by graft for ther families skilled or not skilled (YET).

46

Kennybhoy,

Aberdeen 12/01/2007 08:42:30

you'll be bringing up the treaty of waitangi next!! s'pose we all over here should be paying for that too?

47

SC,

Dundee 12/01/2007 08:47:24

Probably good for the city in the long run. We are a post-industrial society and need to keep moving into cutting edge services. We need to export these new skills, not widgets that can be made by low-skilled labour elsewhere.

When will we become a post-governemental society and get rid of all the State workers?

Did you see that an English doctor is claiming that charges will need to be introduced into the NHS soon. Note he didn't say, privatisation will be necessary, just charges.

Great, still no choice, and it won't even be 'free' at the point of treatment anymore! Watchout, that is Labour's plan.

48

Rory Claymore,

North of Dundee 12/01/2007 08:47:54

Ay weel, there's still somethin guid left in Dundee: the road oot>

49

Duncx,

12/01/2007 08:51:17

They are moving because production cost will be lower in Hungary. Why is that? Why do we get higher wages than Hungary anyway? Historically, its been largely because our producivity is higher.

Okay what do we do now? We've got loads of top class facilities (unused), skilled workers, unskilled workers and clever folk who are good at sums. I sense we are lacking talented business people in this sector.

First lets get the factory, intact, from NCR. Then we get our independently weathy to invest in starting up a Tayside technology company. The company could, for example, build a games console. We already have world leading talent in computer games market.

Or, perhaps set up in competition with NCR, I think the workforce would be pretty commited to the endeavor of removing NCR from the market.

If we work together we can triumph, but it would help if we were out of both the European Unon and the UK.

PS WOULD IT NOT BE GREAT IF BANK OF SCOTLAND AND RBS LET IT BE KNOWN THAT THEY WOULD NO LONGER BE PURCHASING THESE MACHINES IN THE LIGHT OF THIS.

50

bill-alba,

Fife 12/01/2007 08:55:34

We are still operating under tory rules on employment...in the rest of europe its harder to close down businesses - get a real parliament and they can enact good laws..
anyway...companies who tell their workforce one thing and then do the opposite should have their assets seized.

51

sonofhamish,

edinburgh 12/01/2007 08:56:35

This is indeed a brutal day for these workers, but I fear there is no going back in the global economy.

My advice is make sure you get the best education you can and DONT end up doing unskilled labour.

As for the poster asking why Scotland cant be like Switzerland, easy. Switzerland attracts vast numbers of wealthy individuals as a tax haven, there is a trickle down effect of that influx of money. They also have a large number of luxury brands and while most will do their design in Switzerland guess where a lot of the stuff is finally made....

52

Aroha,

Totaranui, New Zealand 12/01/2007 09:00:26

#48 Scott

Maybe time to take a bit of heat out, but two points: first, don't know what a normal person is, but the great, great majority of people are capable of more than unskilled labour. Geniune disability aside, state (and other) programmes can lift people into a far better position to realise their potential even late in life. Surely it's the very essence of snobbery to assume that swathes of the unwashed are happy to be earnign low wages mucking out?

By the way (or by way of example), the 42-year-old storming out of the gates boasting that he earned more than some tradepeople sounded like a more clear, articulate advocate than some of the lawyers I deal with.

The intellectual capability of a population doesn't change much in a couple of generations, but the %age of people in our countries in unskilled labour has dropped away massively in the last 40 years. At the same time eveyone's got massively richer. Good, no?

Secondly, how's hard graft something to do with unskilled labour? I grew up farming, which was mostly semi-skilled (has got much more skilled, esp. after the EU slapped tarrifs on us) and was hard yakka. I now sit on my arse all day, but I don't dount I work as hard as I did on the farm.

53

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 09:02:29

#54 S who is going to build your houses or Offices or hospitals. Unskilled labour that has not been trained yet. Who will fix your car unskilled labour that hasnt been trained.

That I suppose is what immigrants are for, and if Unskilled labour is not good enough for us why should it be good enough for them?

Who will run your country unskilled 'Labour' that still needs to be trained.

54

W Smith,

Middle East 12/01/2007 09:05:23

#41 CJO
Point taken - sounds like another no-brainer for Gordon Brown!

It seems that lowering the corporation tax goes against Mr Brown's left-wing ideals.

So from now on Mr Brown gets 30% of nothing from NCR, 30% of nothing from Lexmarx, 30% of nothing from LG Philips (who pulled out of England).

Wouldn't it be better to settle for 20% of something (corporation tax at 20%) than end up with 30% of nothing??

So far almost 1 million manufacturing jobs have been lost in the UK since Labour came to power 10 years ago. I'd love to know what Mr Brown's plan is to stop the rot - that's assuming he has a plan.

(When Lexmark closed its factory in Fife Gordon Brown showed up offering nothing more than tea and sympathy and a wee lecture on the 'importance of keeping interest rates low' - Great.)

55

Aroha,

Totaranui, New Zealand 12/01/2007 09:07:58

#49 Kenny

Ha ha ha. No, we're paying for that all on our own, or benefoting from it, or both. You lot should have one, though - raise claims for all the land stolen from you in the clearences and the rest. To the barricades...

56

Scottish fan,

CHINA 12/01/2007 09:08:43

STEVE 99 HIT IT ON THE HEAD!

57

eric,

Lothian 12/01/2007 09:08:56

The Gvt Earmarked East London ,Birningham ,Glasgow For Supercity status,
To attract Super rich to the cities and Not tax them.
Glasgow is going ahead with 3 Huge skyscraper buildings One at Charing Cross,And it will Have Super luxury homes shops gyms etc for the wealthy,This is why the Glasgow Finacial area was built on the Clyde,

58

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 09:09:27

#55 Aroha,

Kids coming out of school wanting to be a joiner bricklayer mechanic are what the majority of the population are these are normal people.
They are usually unskilled until they have been trained.

And as for raising them to better levels in life, thats rather insulting, most skilled or unskilled people that I have met are more happy than people living in the educated world of office politics and back stabbing.

Generally they couldn't care less about education but would rather work a 10 hour day with there mates having good banter. Its a rather liberating experience working as a team on site to get the job done through physical labour, rather than thinking about stabbing your colleagues in the back for promotion.

59

Aroha,

Totaranui, New Zealand 12/01/2007 09:13:15

#56 Scott

Maybe got to the bottom of the disagreement. Builders, mechanics, etc. aren't unskilled. They're very skilled, and most tradespeople are running small businesses at the same time. I ran a small business in London a few years ago and understanding govt regs and tax policy (even as explained to me by patient professionals) was a skilled job in itself.

60

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 09:15:26

#62 Aroha,

Yes they are very skilled, but the people who aren't skilled are the people who have not been trained.

And at the moment the "UK" building site is full of immigrants who will do the job cheaper.

61

eric,

Lothian 12/01/2007 09:16:09

Tradesmen are the Backbone of The German Economy Right now.

62

Aroha,

Totaranui, New Zealand 12/01/2007 09:24:46

#61 Scott

Getting to a point of minimal return, but didn't get your 61 before posting 62.

Sounds like you've got a seriously romantic notion of what unskilled work is about. Cleaning offices on a midnight to 5 a.m. shift for minimum wage might be somehow liberating for some people, but I thoroughly doubt for many. Most unskilled labour is about serious drudgery for money that doesn't allow the kids to have what their peers have, you to stay ahead of your debt, etc.

Re better levels: better house, better car, better healthcare, better education, better clothes, better wine... Better. Needs better income, needs a better job.

Couldn't care less about education? Well fine, that's your choice (slap in the face for those who were taxed to provide you with the opportunity, but there you go) but you live with the choice and can't complain if someone else, somewhere else, offers to do your job for less.

There's good banter at my work, by the way.

63

Antonine Plato,

Glasgow 12/01/2007 09:24:58

http://platosway.blogspot.com

Unfortunately it' a sign of the time in terms of the method of communication. I know someone who was informed by DVD that their office was closing.

I think that manufacturing is always going to struggle in the UK. Besides, we don't want to be the sweatshop of the world. More education and more skills is the way forward...

64

Paul.MC,

Fife 12/01/2007 09:26:23

Its the same story all over again. Large US companies find it cheaper to send work to Eastern job markets for cheap labour. Its all about profits and share holders to them.

65

SC,

Dundee 12/01/2007 09:27:12

52,

You are suggesting a command economy. Communism doesn't work, remember. It led to the poverty that now means Hungarians can't demand the wage levels that workers in captialist Scotland can.

Once the Hungarians (and all the rest of the poorer world) catch-ups, jobs will stop exporting there. But they will be much richer and will start developing their own service economy, like ours.

The machines will then build the machines. (Oh, err, that last statement is a bit Terminatoresque scary! But you get my point about economic growth, manufacturing and the service economy.)

66

GP,

12/01/2007 09:27:30

I am afraid this simply highlights the need for change in the UK. Essentially there are at least two economies in the UK just now.
The first is the city of London and it has completely different needs to mos tof the rest of the UK.
For example look at growth - in london it is up to 5%+ whereas in Dundee it will be -1%. The same is true for other remote communities.
Jobs in london - wages booming lots of vacancies.
Jobs outisde london - few and unemployment increasing dramatically, latest figures showed a large leap in scotland and this trend will continue.

Scotland's economy in my view did not grow at all and may well have decreased in the last year.
Add to this an inflation rate of around 8% and w ehave stagflation. Currently this is masked by house price rises and the almost total dependence on public sector in some areas.
We are facing a massive crisis and we do not have the political will to do anything about it.

67

mv,

12/01/2007 09:31:00

This is happening on a regular basis across the UK, large multinational manufacturing companies will move to the cheapest markets but this country appears to have the weakest industrial laws against such moves, other european countries with sometimes even higher wage costs (example Germany) have better laws against companies leaving at the drop of a hat.

For some reason the Government in this country is too weak, I am sure a local Labour MP/MSP will jump up and appear to say the right things but at the end of the day its their policies that are closing manufacturing sites on a regular basis.

It appears the UK will only have service industries from now on, lower wages and lack of any career (Tesco and Call Centres!).

There is also the problem that everyone wants everything at the cheapest price but this forces suppliers of goods to oversea countries for lower production costs and poor health & safety/human rights (ie most of the toys purchased at xmas came from China but the same people complaining about places shutting will be the same ones trying to get a large plastic toy for 9.99 which cost 50p to make!)...Use local companies, local shops, local farmers....or else...

For a country to survive and grow you need large companies that are locally based with both high and lower value jobs and the goods/services to be purchased locally. The UK does not seem to be able to grow these types of modern companies , where are the Nokias, the Sonys, the Dells, the BMWs, the Coca Colas of Scotland? Its seems the government does not support them, if a small start up business does well it is swamped in red tape and high taxes and then it usually dies or jumps overseas...

68

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 09:33:53

#65

I at one time was unskilled labour, I had to carry out manual labour tasks until I became a machine man manufacturing furniture, then on to run the business where I learnt that with increasing taxation and material cost we could not continue. You can buy furniture from Eastern Europe for £15.00 a chair you cant even buy timber for the chair in the UK for £15.00.

I then trained to be an Architectural Technician through 5 Years of study while being a health & Safety Officer Estimator and Surveyor for a building company. And I still watch as companies hunt for cheap labour namely eastern europeans to survive.
That company went to the wall also as other companies employ cheap eastern european immigrants to do the job cheaper than there competitors.

That being the case what exactly are we all to do, be lawyers accountants engineers and let the Eastern Europeans and Chinese and all other cheap labour countries do the work?

69

Jim King,

EDINBURGH 12/01/2007 09:38:32

One word 'Capitalism', high wages, high cost of living, Britain was doing well being the biggest 'Rip of Country of Europe', not happy with ripping us off they are of to do it with others and get even more cash for the shareholders and executives and remain 'ripping us off' by continuing to sell us crap at the highest price.

70

Rory Claymore,

North of Dundee 12/01/2007 09:42:47

Nivir seen sic a stramash o commentators staggerin aroon in a mire......wid yese git oan aboot the people who kin help the suffererin fowks o Dundee.

71

SC,

Dundee 12/01/2007 09:43:17

67, it is all about profits and shareholder return. But that is a good thing as we are all shareholders - either directly in our private pensions, or indirectly through the taxes on private incomes that pay for state pensions.

We have to keep business competitive. We all depend on the profits.

You can't tax a loss.

72

eric,

Lothian 12/01/2007 09:44:08

Global economy makes capital cities look redundant,Everyone for themselves now,

73

jaydot,

12/01/2007 09:46:31

no 46 Aroashole.

Things have changed dramatically since the 80's, Dundee still does rely on manufacturing, but it is now the centre for Bio sciences in Scotland and the second biggest employer in this area in the UK. Things are improving all the time, we are adapting to change but it takes time.
People like you you stay put where you are in NZ. Plenty of sheep there to keep your thingy warm.

74

Pete39,

Tassy 12/01/2007 09:46:31

There are more markets in the world than the EU. That is the easy one. Canada, US, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Africa, India, China, all the eastern countries if you can get a deal on the go. Build a Scottish Merchant fleet, if you cannot afford theguys to run them, computerise the job. Get a bit of class into the sea. It is full of all kinds of grot, Scotland, and even the world does not need it. Cheez another Ben Line, but a real big one. The mind boggles.

75

Rob me blind,

12/01/2007 09:49:05

Just when is Scotland going to wake up to the reality of the global situation. Never mind all the drivel that the politicians spout the reality is that Scotland survives because of foreign company’s.

If you look at Dundee just what is going to be left if these company’s leave a few service sector jobs and that’s about it. The only real manufacturing jobs left there are in a tyre plant owned by the French. If the Oil company’s could find a cheaper alternative to supply the oil fields do you think they would stay in Scotland. It comes as a surprise to our politicians that this has happened and they didn’t get any warning. Well that just shows how out of touch they are with what is going on their own door steps.

We have paid millions to company’s to set up in Scotland and what happens they up sticks and move once they have developed their products at our cost and then they sell them back to us.

WAKE UP SCOTLAND! Independence it will be more like subsistence Scotland if we don’t stop the rot now.

76

Keltie,

Livingston 12/01/2007 09:49:06

The loss of manufacturing in Scotland will not stop, people want stuff cheaper on the whole, we need to get the Govt. to step up and help rebuild the economy and Industry, they can do it if they have the appitite hey but they may find themselves redundant if they do.....

http://thedailychallengesofanentrepreneur.blogspot.com/

Slaite
Keltie

77

Everything you do is a balloon,

12/01/2007 09:51:12

W Smith at 27 has hit the nail on the head. Most Multi-nationals are happier to work with an English speaking workforce but with Corporation Tax levels in this country they will not hang around for long.

A selling point for the SNP , IF they keep their promises to lower Corporation Tax.

We live in strange times , when previous Iron Curtain nations are happier and quicker to adapt to the free market than countries who vitruall invented it , courtesy of Adam Smith.

78

SC,

Dundee 12/01/2007 09:54:20

69, you're right, the UK does need fundamental change.

Political centralisation on London means that the local economic problems are never addressed until it is way too late.

Consider post-war Britain. Failing industries were propped up by the commercial London for 30 years until they could bare it no more and the plug was pulled in 1979.

Had Manchester, Glasgow, Dundee etc had sole political control (and fiscal responsibility) they would have to have reformed their industries much earlier. And perhaps early enough to save them.

Perhaps the same things is happening now, but instead of industry being propped up, it is the thousands of government non-jobs created since 1997. David Cameron is coming.

Effectively the British state is akin to collectivisation. It removes responsibility from individuals and localities, and as a result insulates them from the real economy until it is too late. Relative poverty is the price we all pay - London too as its taxes are so high to pay for failure elsewhere.

79

Socrates470BC,

12/01/2007 09:55:42

I hope that the banks insist on a 90% price reduction for NCR products, and the public then demand that these cost reductions are passed on.

The government allow this to happen, and think that there is nothing that they can do. They are again wrong.

I wrote to my MP just last week demanding that we in the UK benefit form this so callled globalisation effect by see pricies decrease, but as we all know, UK prices are amonst the highest in the world.

Just one example:

It is now some years since we all became members of the European Single market. Today we are in an even larger world market due to the World Wide Web.

The World Wide Web now lets us shop around the world. Those of us who live in the United Kingdom have been comparing prices and have found that we are being royally ripped off by the major global companies.

It is indefensible for the monolithic monopoly Microsoft Corporation to be one of the worst offenders.
A simple example, using the price of a New Microsoft product:

Microsoft Expression Web (A replacement for Microsoft Front Page)
Cost in the U.S.A. $299.

Cost in the U.K. £259.

What should it cost in the UK?

(U.S. Price + VAT + (a simple 10% max difference))/ current exchange rate

(299 + (17.5% of 299) + (a simple 10% max difference)) / Current exchange rate

(299 + 52.33 + (10% of (299 + 52.33)) / Current Exchange Rate

(351.33 + 35.13) / Current exchange rate

386.46 / 1.931

= £ 200.13 (N.B. with a 10% max diff included this should be the maximum UK price)

There are many products that do not fall within the maximum 10% allowance. This is a problem not just for the UK but for the whole E.U.

Legislation is urgently required to provide protection for the UK and EU consumers.

I urge you to make representations to both the UK government and to the EU officials who are currently investigating Microsoft.

80

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 09:59:36

Tesco - Timex and now NCR - all alrge companies that had sizeable operations in Dundee and said they were committed to Dundee as the workforce were first class.

All of course lies - all that matters is shareholder profit, stock price and director's huge dividends.

Labour have done nothing to protect workers and the world's largest companies have gotten richer and richer under Labour.

Meanwhile the Labour party open door policy means Dundee which already has the largest Bulgarian community in the UK is set to take in another wave on top of the sizeable Polish population (est. at 12,000 poss larger).

Try telling an NCR Dundee worker that Europe (their jobs are off to Hungary) is working for them!!!

I am not anti-immigrant nor anti-Europe (outright) but something needs sorting out and fast.

Alex Salmond - please take heed of this fiasco - assuming you become First Minister I think this needs urgent addressing.

81

Aroha,

Totaranui, New Zealand 12/01/2007 09:59:38

#65

Congrats on the career.

We have the same thing here. People making mass-market furniture here can export timber to Asia, have it made into finished goods, and imported for less than the cost of manufacturing locally. So we retain the high-value design, marketing, commercial management, etc. work and export the low-value work. Fine. NZers get cheaper furniture and Asians get jobs. Everyone's happy. Interestingly, the high-value maufacture of craftwork on high-value native timber is still all local.

I'm Maori (Scots whakapapa as well, though, from Angus). We've an incredibly strong entrepreneurial tradition but for many generations took a defeated stance (I recognised this in Scotland, by the way) - bluster at the old oppressor but a lot of reluctance to take responsibility for the way forward. There's little nobility in a lifetime of unskilled work and from my experience it doesn't come from real, long-term choice.

For us, for the best part of a generation now we've been over-represented in Parliament and in universities. I see every day the effect on our people of rising to 'better' (yes, better) levels of employment.

Anyway - off the high horse. Late. I've got a huge bike ride in the morning, and you've no doubt got skilled work to do. Nice chatting.

82

Aroha,

Totaranui, New Zealand 12/01/2007 10:03:19

#76

I'm a woman.

83

,

12/01/2007 10:08:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 279546, Article id was mapped to record!
84

Socrates470BC,

12/01/2007 10:11:48

The government urgently needs to introduce a new Globalisation Bill. It also needs to look seriously at the financial packages being offered to large companies. Here are some of the laws that should come into force in the Globalisation Bill.
1. Price control. The Lowest Price (LP) for any product that a company sells anywhere in the world should be on record. That product should then have a maximum price in the UK of the LP + 10%. (The 10% is to allow for exchange rate fluctuations.
2. All funds (grants etc) given to companies must be repayable if the company’s employee total in the UK drops at any time within a 25year period of receiving such funds.
Point one allows the UK public to benefit in the globalisation effect. From the governments point of view it helps stabilise prices and keep inflation under control.
Point two makes any withdrawal of labour from a UK much less cost effective, especially from companies who have receive large amounts from the UK tax payer.

85

Everything you do is a balloon,

12/01/2007 10:12:58

Jeff, nothing to do with immigrants. No point in blaming people for taking opportunities.

Its the Government you should be asking questions of, 30% Corporation Tax rates will not attract businesses in a global economy.

86

Aroha,

Totaranui, New Zealand 12/01/2007 10:13:50

Boy sheep get their bits cut off early on. Helps put weight on. Anyway, I’m pleased to hear that Dundee’s improving. I saw the best pub band I ever saw in Dundee. Quicksilver, I think, down in some hole near the docks.

87

WilliamT,

UK 12/01/2007 10:15:12

McDiddums time again. OK for RBS/BoS etc to take over and down size operations outside Scotland - that's good for the Scottish economy. For any company to do that in Scotland - Boo Hoo!

And as for invention - inventors invent for their personal gain and to improve the world generally - not to create jobs for the country of their birth.

88

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 10:23:08

#88

Your right its not the immigrants fault for taking the opportunity.

Its immoral executives and corporation tax thats the problem.

But then again all the 3 world countries do need jobs. localisation is the answer machines sold to Hungary are built in Hungary.
Machines Built in the UK/Scotland are built in the UK/Scotland not built cheaply in Europe then shipped back to maximise profits, thats immoral.

89

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 10:25:13

#88

Are you simple or do you simply not read?

I did not BLAME immigrants - you are a typical example of someone who cannot stomach any DISCUSSION regarding immigration.

FACT: If Dundee has an immigrant population of approx. 15,000 (out of a total working population of approx. 89,000) then of course this will impact on job opportunities for people born in Dundee.

I suggest you actually read posts before hitting the keyboard and typing nonsense!

90

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 10:25:37

If all large corporate bodies adopted a localisation policy the world would be a happier place.

91

Em.C.Spiteri,

Harrow 12/01/2007 10:25:50

The British workman and the British Government are putting themselves out of the competition. Not oly that, after sales service stinks,take PC Times and Packard Bell, they should be made illegal.

92

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 10:26:07

Luckily I now work for a company adopting this policy.

93

C.,

WEST LOTHIAN 12/01/2007 10:29:19

Another one bites the dust and the british government just lies down and gets its tummy tickled. I though America were ment to be our allies?

Its like being stabbed in the back. I really feel for the folk in Dundee.

If this was in France the full country would grind to a halt, all porrts would be bloked, cars would be set on fire and the government would have to take notice.

If we were an independant nation, I think it would be different, Tony obviously has other things on his mind like who next to ask for a free holiday......

94

Everything you do is a balloon,

12/01/2007 10:33:37

Stop it now with the Capital letters and accusations of being simple or Ill be up there to kick you lazy dundonian asses into workshape.

First defence of the moron, immigration.

95

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 10:38:11

#97

I doubt buy your posts you could FIND Dundee.

It ids normally the uneducated socialists who hear the word IMMIGRATION and start shouting racist. Thankfully people in this country THINK a little more about things than you do and can debate immigration. After all it was Tony Blair's Labour party who though theire would be about 20,000 Polish coming and we got closer to 600,000 and rising each year.

So I make no apology (least of all to to a moron) about discussing immigration effects on a city with ABOVE THE NATIONAL AVERAGE employment and disnal job prospects.

Why don't you try reading some books it might improve your IQ?

96

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 10:38:53

#97

ITS NOT A DEFENCE ITS A DEBATE, ON THE FASHION TREND OF EMPLOYING CHEAPER LABOUR TO MAXIMISE PROFITS. INCLUDING IMMIGRANTS IN THE UK WHO WILL LIVE IN A ROOM TO SEND MONEY HOME, AND AREN'T WORRYING ABOUT FAMILIES MORTGAGES AND HOLIDAYS.

ONLY SOMEONE WHO IS STUPID WOULD NOT REALISE THIS!!!

97

Keir Hardie,

Inverness 12/01/2007 10:41:43

I'm starting to see a pattern in some of the responses to stories here.

When there's a story about bad weather I fully expect some of out stuck record pundits to opine that there would be no bad weather if Scotland was independent.

98

Everything you do is a balloon,

12/01/2007 10:45:52

i still defend the LAZY asses statement.

Its a competitive world, compete.

1992 , do you remeber that and the single EU market ?

Nah, you didnt get it did you?

99

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 10:45:53

#100

So I suppose Lablour are attracting lots of inward investment and jobs into Scotland then?

NOT!

100

,

12/01/2007 10:46:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 279680, Article id was mapped to record!
101

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 10:48:37

#101

You are truly stupid. Relatively the wages in Dundee for NCR workers are not high - they work very hard and you comments are insulting and ignorant.

It is because wages in Hungary are less than half that greedy companies will move their. If your formula was applied to the whole of the UK then it 10 years their would be virtually mass unemployment.

Social responsibility to local markets is what is needed. I doubt you understand that though.

102

SC,

Dundee 12/01/2007 10:49:10

Keir,

You shouldn't debase an important argument.

Political accountability is critical to running a successful economy - and that is the sole reason I call for independence.

Without accountability you get high taxes, ruinous regulations and poor services - just like Scotland has today.

I'm going to change my Scotsman name to Adam Smith, btw. We need someone across a sane view of the world.

103

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 10:49:26

#103 Shug

What evidence have you got the NCR Dundee was not a very competitive manufacturing base?

104

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 10:51:17

#101

You are truly the thickest commentor on this website, infact studies should be carried out on you and DNA samples taken as you possibly could be the missing link in Human Evolution.

105

SC,

Dundee 12/01/2007 10:53:20

104, Jeff you are wrong. Globalisation reduces the prices we all pay for the goods we buy. The money we spend is then available to spend on services which by their very nature can only mainly be provided in Dundee.

If we outsource all dirty manufacturing and build a serive economy, we will be very rich indeed.

Your argument is completely void and was disproved in the 80s/90s. Employment eventually went up after we had stopped manufacturing things.

106

Everything you do is a balloon,

12/01/2007 10:58:34

Social responsibility in Global Markets.

Dream on mate.

107

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 10:58:59

#108 - You are talking rubbish

Globalisation is a DISASTER ... it means that someone in Dundee for example made unemployed for a manufacturing base can sometimes never find employment again in a city with above average unemployment and very few jobs so they are reduced to either claiming benefits or take a menial minimum wage part-time job. They have little or no disposable income which blows apart your theory of spending money on services and luxuries.

Building a 'service' economy works well for an elite few but in reality in makes jobs such as call centres - low paid - which eventually go to India and the Phillipines - like Tesco did with Dundee call centre - hundreds of those lwo paid jobs went to Asia!

Pick up a local paper and scan the employment section for jobs in Dundee and you will soon see that unless you have a degree in science or the likes or want to take a part-time or low paid job their is precious little else.

If that is your successful globalisation programme you can keep it!

108

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 11:00:31

#109 - Glad to see at least you realise their is no social responsibility in Global Markets - another reason to oppose it on grounds of socialism!

109

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 11:00:42

#108

You are actually wrong, we still pay £1500/£3000 for a TV built in China or Taiwan.

110

GP,

12/01/2007 11:04:41

Shug# it's a two way street and managers have to grow some balls and spine and stop delivering messages via video links and text messages.

We still suffer from the lack of ambition middle manager syndrome. the type who think they have made it coz they got a foot up a couple of rungs.
People need to be involved especially in these types of roles where although classed as unskilled I am sure many would rather do something else if possible. They also are the people who can provide the best ideas on how to change things but as can be seen from the format of delivery of this bad news the local managers are gutless wonders.
How did they deliver good news to their staff I wonder.

111

Allan,

12/01/2007 11:05:38

Real reason is simply high taxes and the raft of "social benifits" eg maternity & paternity leave. When will people realise that all these inducements offered by politicians are bleeding the country dry, and causing the exodus of jobs. PS, I live just outside Dundee, and am just surprised it didn't happen sooner. The writing has been on the wall for years. PPS bet Mitchelan will be closed within the next 10 years.

112

Everything you do is a balloon,

12/01/2007 11:06:32

I get sick and tired of the protectionism in places like Dundee .

If you cant grasp concepts like Corporation Tax and would rather pick on Europeans who have the RIGHT to live and work anywhere withing the EU then Im not going to bother.

I can understand your anger. Ive been unemployed and it was not pretty , was the lowest time in my life.

113

Buckfastleigh,

12/01/2007 11:07:15

Your headline is misleading...is not Scotland in Europe?

This is not the first time in recent history that manufacturing processes have shifted from the UK in similar circumstances.

If the production has been removed in this way and it has not been transferred to Asia; can the disbenefit of not being in the € zone not be a contributory cause?

I sometimes wonder if our government realizes that we are working in the single market and that we may not have the essential tool to compete within it , the single currency.

114

Everything you do is a balloon,

12/01/2007 11:10:11

Tee Hee. Jeff is going to stop Globalisation.

What was it again ?

Give me the power to accept things I cant change and the power to change the things I can ?

Sober up.

115

GP,

12/01/2007 11:11:08

108# employment has not risen at all.
This is masked by varying degress of statistical changes by all governments to avoid telling the puiblic the truth. It started with Thatcher in the 80's getting unemployed off that register and onto incapacity register.
By the way even although this government realises this and have actually announced avenues to change this incapacity claims are increasing not decreasing. This means that the unemployment figures are still being faked and in truth unemployment is increasing rapidly.
If you take last years figures of increased unemployment for scotland from the government then add the increase in incapacity numbers you will see that we are already in dire straits and this labour administration has no idea how to get out of this downward spiral.

116

SC,

Dundee 12/01/2007 11:14:08

Jeff,

Wrong, I'm afraid. But the overall effect of lower the cost of manufactured goods will filter down into the Dundee economy (remember it is not just in Dundee that this is happening, but globally). This will give those in employment now more to spend on local services.

The local services will then recruit more people, including those who have just lost their jobs.

If you don't believe me, consider the UK and French economies over the last 30 years. We have succesfully-ish transitioned to a post-industrial private led service economy and generate wealth. The French have tried to hold back globalisation and have huge employment issues.

All we need to do now is sort out state spending and taxation.

117

Everything you do is a balloon,

12/01/2007 11:14:37

DundeeGrad , twinned with Karl-Marx Stad. Has no-one told you the news from Berlin ?

118

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 11:14:59

#114

But it is not protectionism - it is GLOBALISATION .. and it follows that profit is put before people - that profit in the main goes to an elite few.

Take Citibank - 15 years ago in the UK they had a good call centre in Tyneside - it moved to Barcelona after 4 years (cheaper costs) - it moved 3 years later to India (much cheaper costs) - what next Vietnam? Where pot-belly pigs have headsets and have been trained to read a script from the screen. I used to bank with Citibank (was with them for 14 years) but the service deteriorated with every move - so I left. So who gains through Globalisation.

Yes we must be competitive but their has to be balance. For UK workers that means some basic protections otherwise they get used until the parent company has built their call centre or factory wherever Labour is 50% or whatever cheaper - where does it end?

119

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 11:17:20

#114

They do yes but is it not immoral for employers to abuse them by paying cheap wages to finance their sports cars? Your a complete bell end.

120

Everything you do is a balloon,

12/01/2007 11:21:48

Captalism Immoral or not ? Discuss.

You are the bell end Scott.

Enough.

121

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 11:22:38

#118 SC

You are STILL wrong, I am afraid.
This nonsense of 'filtering down' wealth not just in Dundee but in the UK as a whole. People struggle nowadays to make ends meet with millions in debt not because they have overspent on luxuries but because the use credit cards for esentials etc. How long does it take for GLOBALISATION to work then? How long have we had it.

Clearly it benefits company directors and shareholders only. The UK economy as it stands benefits a small percentage in real terms - those who get huge bonuses in the city - your average worker in the UK gets shafted.

I like this comment from someone in Nottingham in reaction to yet another rate rise:

You're born, drag yourself through underfunded state schooling, go to University and graduate with £15k worth of debt, find a job, get taxed at work and getting to work, pay extortionate rent and council tax and if you're lucky find the deposit for a 2bed rabbit hutch, struggle to pay your mortgage and council tax and heating and lighting (with taxes), retire with a hopeless pension (and still pay council tax), get ill and suffer a hopeless NHS, die.

Thanks New Labour.

He left out the bit about job security though - things will get worse so long as we adhere to the current form of Globalisation.

In Dundee new businesses having been failing at their higherst rate for the past decade. The local business forum/council went bankrupt!! So in Dundee at least your theory of local services employing more people as a rsult of this fantasy benefit is trashed!

I am not sure where you are coming from but it certainly is not from a average workers standpoint!

122

Everything you do is a balloon,

12/01/2007 11:24:36

120 . Probably end in West Africa Jeff, english speaking populations in Gambia, Sierra Leone and the lowest salary base imaginable.

I dont want to fight anymore.

Im genuinely sorry to hear about these job losses.

123

CJO,

12/01/2007 11:25:47

#52 Duncx - why on earth would RBS and HBOS not buy products from NCR? Is it because you think they have "Scotland" in their titles would make them care for the people in the country? You don't really believe that these massive profit making machines care about 650 people in dundee do you? They are there to represent their shareholders best interests where ever and whenever they can be served. Not buying something from a global company because they close a facility somewhere in the world is utterly ludicrous. Perhaps you should ensure you never take money out of an NCR register and onlybank with a bank that will not buy from them? Good luck.

124

Hung over,

London 12/01/2007 11:27:57

The Americans see the whole of Europe as one place, including the UK. By moving to Hungary they probably think its moving to a different part of the same country.

125

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 11:28:35

#124

Me too - I feel angry and disappointed about NCR.

I have my own company (wee) with base in Scotland and office in England. I would never shaft my empolyees for lower base costs. I have refused repeatedly to outsource work overseas knowing I could earn more profit for my own pocket. If my clients want cheaper - they can go elsewhere - in fact several have - and returned when the results they got were inferior.

126

W Smith,

Middle East 12/01/2007 11:30:53

#123 jeff
Not sure what you have against globalisation.

Do you mean global trade?

If you go into a nightclub in Hong Kong, Tokyo, Singapore, etc you always fine Chivas Regal!

Gordon Brown makes a tidy lump sum in tax out of this. Isn't this globalisation?

127

Everything you do is a balloon,

12/01/2007 11:30:56

Then I wish you well, you are one of the few Jeff.

Cheers.

128

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 11:35:07

#128

Globalisation, in it's current form, does not set out to make life fairer and more equal for everyone - it's sole purpose is to make MORE PROFIT. That profit does not work it's way down from the top in anything like a fair proportion.

Yes it gives other developing nations a chance to work in industries that did not exist before - but the countries that once did that work are left high and dry - and despite the propoganda about the benefits as a result - well the evidence is their to see in Dundee at least - higher than average national empoyment and low paid jobs which have too many applicants scrambling for them.

It verges on degrading - it is this and more that I oppose.

129

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 11:50:28

#122

Whit are you talking about, Capitalism immoral, the idea isn't immoral.

You are truly scraping the barrel to defend your stupidity.

130

Homo Sapiens,

Edinburgh 12/01/2007 11:54:38

The lengthy debate has not touched on some of the key issues, and the REAL reasons for the flight of jobs to other countries with lower labour costs. First, lets not forget, that just like the invention of the ATM by a scot (is that true?), Globalisation, and free markets are also the "invention" of a Scot, Adam Smith from Kirkcaldy (not 50 miles from Dundee). Also the migration of production to lower costs countries is not entirely new to Scots, Carnegie (from Dunfermline) made one of the world's biggest fortunes in the steel industry by going to the USA!

Let us not forget that we all want to buy quality products at the cheapest price. We also want the companies to continue to make profits, so that they will continue to stay in business, employ people, pay taxes, and yes distribute dividends so that we can get our pensions... To continue to have companies that are profitable and employ people we have to aspire to have a low labour cost. It is impossible to have a low labour cost if we demand a huge amount of services to be provided by a welfare state, and a socialist economy. The only way a government can provide all the benefits and services, is through high levels of taxation. High taxes increase labour costs (because we demand to be paid more so that we can buy the products and services we need to sustain our life style). High taxes, also reduce corporate profitability further, making it difficult for companies to manufacture the goods we want cheaply. If the UK based company production costs are higher than its competitor manufacturing in another country, then the UK company will lose sales, with a decline in sales, it will be making losses and will go out of business, with losses of jobs. The increased number of jobless will then be added to the tax burden of this socialist welfare state, leading ultimately to a further increase in taxes, further increases in labour costs, further decline in corporate profitability, further increa

131

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 11:55:34

#128

Globalisation as a product is fine.

Globalisation where cheap production is sought without reducing your product cost not fine.

Localisation (not literally town by town) allows companies to manufacture profitably relative to the country it sells.

NCR Dundee probably operated profitably but not as much as if they moved to Hungary.

132

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 12:03:19

#132

So how exactly would you apply that 100 yr old market application to a modern Scotland. How would you go about making Scots' lives one where they prosper and not left to the hands of capitalism mixed with globalisation which cares lit for fairness or loyalty?

BTW: I do not disagree that we all want to buy quality products at the cheapest price - but I will not by products - such as a Dyson (royally screwed over his UK workforce to line his pockets - alrady got large UK govt subsidies before he did this) who have not a shred of social conscience or loyalty to their workforce.

133

John,,

East Lothian 12/01/2007 12:26:22

I guess it is a feature of these blogs, but it never fails to amuse me how many ex-pat Scots there are, who haven't lived here for years and years, but yet feel qualified to pronounce on issues concerning the running of this country.

Memo to ex-pats:

You don't live here any more. Your views of how this country is, was and should be run are about as valid as those of the President of Outer Mongolia. Your contributions are interesting in much the same way as the Beano is interesting.

134

Steve99,

Reply to Scott Ola - 12/01/2007 12:29:57

"You obviously have never been to Dundee, most people want to work for the council because thats all thats left and hopefully more secure than any other jobs in Dundee."

Well first of whether I have been there or not hardly changes the value of my comments. However would last weekend be recent enough? And yes I do know Dundee, intimately.

However your response is really just confirming my comments re attitude to employment in Dundee. Majority want to be 'employees' where they can deliver the least effort for the most money. Fair enough in a capitalist system, but it does work both ways.

Just look at the Ship building, the north sea boom that bodyswerved Dundee, Timex, Valentines, Sidlaw etc. Just drive round the Kingsway and all the remaining shells or piles of bricks are there.

Higher council tax, less jobs, people moving towards Perth (who can afford it), declining school populations forecast. Dundee will move gradually towards a city of Council employees, with old people, and the disabled and unemployed. With that financial model the council jobs will start to disappear, starting with teachers. This is now happening and the NCR decision just brings it to the media attention, but unless someone within the council or parliament can address the fundamental problems the city has, it will continue to get worse.

I would hope the time has come to stop pussy footing around it, and being very PC about it. It will take tough talking and real actions.

135

Steve99,

Homo Sapiens - Globalisation 12/01/2007 12:36:21

As I see you live in Edinburgh, it would be worth looking at how globalisation is effecting Edinburgh, and then compare that with Dundee.

Alliance Trust is expanding, creating jobs in Dundee. The cancer research going on there is expanding. In Edinburgh there aren't enough people for the jobs, especially in the financial and services sectors, you only have to try to drive around Edinburgh to see it is financially buoyant.

The jobs being lost in Dundee were forecast 15 years ago to be lost. That is why UK wants to be a true skill based economy, just listen to Gordon Brown, or Jim Mather if you are of that bent.

So just to label what is happening as globalisation, misses the key point totally and is quite mislaeding. It also distracts from the fact that Dundee did NOT change as many other parts of Scotland did when the future loss of jobs of this type was first discussed publicly.

136

Everything you do is a balloon,

12/01/2007 12:39:33

JOhn , expats are entitled to their opinion too, as long as they dont just rub rub nose in it.

Remember , expats are generally economic migrants.

137

Everything you do is a balloon,

12/01/2007 12:41:20

Its also the reason you want hear xpats putting up with the compaints against immigrants. If our host countries thought like that , we'd be in real sh!t !

Just a point worth making I think, and we still care about our homeland.

138

william john,

ayre 12/01/2007 12:41:32

Ah well another 650 scots will be headed for England theres plenty of work there , and more Scots than there is in Scotland.

139

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 12:42:19

#136

Thats why I now live in Aberdeen, Dundee people aren't lazy by any stretch of the imagination, there just fed up being shafted by employers.

The Cooncil as we refer definately need to kick some Government ass and sort it out.

As far as NCR keeping the Engineering office open is concerned I would ask them to come to there senses and possibly look for financial banking from our Banks with government approval and assistance to possibly develop and start a Scottish Tech Firm. But then again the cooncil will probably build another Tesco instead.

140

Scot-free,

Netherlands 12/01/2007 12:44:17

Welcome to the new and enlarged Europe! What is this all good for? the businessmen and the politicians. It is always those on the bottom rung who get dumped on from a great height. Who can blame people in Hungary for wanting this opportunity? Unfortunately it is us who suffer.

141

SC,

Dundee 12/01/2007 12:46:52

Jeff,

Globalisation may not care "lit for fairness or loyalty", yet it generates work for poorer workers in Hungary or India or where ever, and lower prices for poorer people in Scotland. A

Somebody help me here, but wasn't this Adam Smith's invisible hand?

142

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 12:57:31

#143

Even if it does lower prices for some products in the UK (of which I remain to be convinCED) - these in the main are not living essentials such as gas/electric and food tha are being reduced. These essentials rise despite jobs going overseas.

Furthermore, how can a worker in the UK chucked on the dole afford ANY luxuries?

143

Everything you do is a balloon,

12/01/2007 13:03:17

What about Lucky Pierre's invisible hand?

I think you are right SC.

144

Homo Sapiens,

Edinburgh 12/01/2007 13:19:23

If you do not believe that a faulty tax regime, by a a socialist government is what is ruining this country's competitive edge read the following article in a leading publication.

"Britain’s outdated tax laws fuel the corporate exodus" http://www.thebusinessonline.com/Document.aspx?id={FFC8E0F7-FB1F-415A-8F95-EB030D6CD450}

145

wattie>x 1,

12/01/2007 13:32:03

This cruel and savage treatment to those employed in the factory involved, has come as no surprise to me. The perpetrators of this inhumane act are only a tiny fragment of the legalised crooked political and evil economic system that determines how the ordinary people and their families are allowed to survive by the life threatening decisions, made by these legalised evil gangsters. Ordinary people worldwide are firmly rooted to the Organisation of Crooks who are in firm control of their future destiny. In the disunited UK, we allowed a long haired pop singer during 1997, whom very few people had ever heard off, to become the leader of the country and their destiny.
Both Blair and Brown were then, and before, were being partly financed by some of the same type off business *crooks* who now, without any remorse and overnight, can destroy the secure livelihoods of many hundreds off families. These two, supported by ex-communist renegades and former professed socialists within New Labour, weren't long in introducing undemocratically, the imported American spin (lying), to confuse and mislead the the UK voters. New Labour has despicably used these scaremongering tactics to unscrupulously control us economically and politically, whilst those in real control,are become more wealthier each day at the expense of ordinary families. Since Blair, during his clandestine meetings with the lying sexual deviant Clinton, the whole face off British politics has been changing dramatically to the AMERICAN WAY, the land of opportunity and the free. But in reality, this perception is some what different.
In the USA itself; the latest report to be released by the US justice Department during December 2006 revealed that a record 7 million people were either in prison, on probation or on parole. Their prisons held 2.2million inmates, an increase of 2.6% over the previous year. A further report revealed that in New York City, roughly one in six of its population could not aff

146

babba,

dundee 12/01/2007 13:35:38

CONSUMERS WANT CHEEP ITEMS.
UK MANFACTURES CAN NOT COMPETE WITH CHEEP IMPORTS.
WE WANT A MINIMUM WAGE,THIS IS ONLY THE TIP OF THE ICE BERG OF WHAT IS TO COME
IF YOU CAN PAY HALF THE PRICE OF ITEM MADE IN CHINA ECT WHAT WILL YOU CHOOSE,
WE ARE ALL GUILTY OF WANTING CHEEP ITEMS.
IF NCR, MITCHLEN,TIMEX,IBP DO NOT RELOCATE
THEY WILL GO BUST, COMPANYS ARE ONLY DOING WHAT ANY WISE MAN WOULD DO.HOW CAN THEY COMPETE WITH CHEAP IMPORTS.
NEXT TIME YOU ARE FACED WITH CHEAPER PRODUCT V DEAR PRODUCT WHICH WILL YOU CHOOSE

147

babba,

dundee 12/01/2007 13:42:34

MANUFACTURER IN THE UK RIP

148

Porky,

Socialist Republic of Walsall 12/01/2007 13:46:58

Hungary: Private sector accounts for over 80 per cent of GDP.
Scotland: ?????

I would have written more, but #132 says it all.

149

Sedov,

Scotland 12/01/2007 13:49:18

As an Amicus member, who for many years worked on NCR sub contracts, I can only express my despair at the loss of so many jobs in Dundee. As I have said many times on these posts, industry has only one god and loyalty and that it to the maximisation of its profits. The bosses know no loyalty to local communities , only to their shareholders, that is the system we live in. This is another lesson for the political parties who have no intention of challenging the present system, but only hope of " making it better" What you don't own you cannot control and the wishful thinking of the Nats cannot make it any different. Indeed the SNP programme is very like New Labour in that it wants to create an "enterprise culture2 (read low wage economy) to try and keep the NCR's here in Scotland and attract new industry without the constraints of organised labour and a rise in minimum wage. That is why the SNP voted with the Tories (and also support New Labour) to keep the anti -trade union laws on the statute book of an independent Scotland if it arises. You have been warned!

150

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 13:58:05

# 151 SEDOV

What would you put in place of the current strategy that you say in your post is pretty much cross-party?

151

Everything you do is a balloon,

12/01/2007 13:59:40

This is what frightens me about Scotland , no investment in Infrastructure , no encouragment to business to invest in the country and we wonder why things are going down the tubes.

INternational and Glbal companies have to be encouraged to come to Scotland in ways that reflect the realities of the system we work under.

Look at Donald Trumps "vision" (ok, maybe not the best example) for his Golf Course and Hotel etc. Look at the shouts of dismay at plans for Wind Farms in the North of Scotland.

Do we want jobs or do we not ? These things come at a price, of course they do.

Other countries are mature enough to accept the price and to deal with change, I sometimes wonder if this will ever be the case in Scotland.

Again, condolences for the losses in Dundee and good luck in finding something else.

152

Pedro48,

Downunder 12/01/2007 14:03:28

The logic fails me somewhat, NCR lost £42M last year making ATMs in Scotland. Even at the top mark £400 per week for 650 workers is only £13.52M. So even if the Hungarian workers are free....

What did NCR do with the other £28.48M.

Come on Mr NCR what is the real reason..!

153

kennyy,

12/01/2007 14:08:01

fintry not "fintray"!!

154

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 14:08:02

#154 Pedro

Is the answer not that they lost £42M compared to what they would make if operations were based in Hungary.

And that they only made £20M in Scotland last year.

155

weeshooie,

Livingston 12/01/2007 14:08:22

Well said scottweb. I agree 100% and I too get thoroughly fed up with both local and central Government.

i have said for years there is a hidden agenda with any type of viable industry in Scotland. that is to close it all down so we can never become self sufficient. sine Labour took power, investment in Scotland has dropped 80% using their own figures.
what a great job Jack is doing for Scotland and the people of Scotland as he likes to repeat again and again.
get the whole bloody lot of them out now!!!

156

Aghast,

12/01/2007 14:19:53

A NEW YEAR'S RESOLUTION TO LEAVE DUNDEE
by William McGonagall

Welcome! thrice welcome! to the year 1893, For it is the year I intend to leave Dundee, Owing to the treatment I receive, Which does my heart sadly grieve.
Every morning when I go out
The ignorant rabble they do shout
'There goes Mad McGonagall'
In derisive shouts as loud as they can bawl, And lifts stones and snowballs, throws them at me; And such actions are shameful to be heard in the city of Dundee.
And I'm ashamed, kind Christians, to confess That from the Magistrates I can get no redress.
Therefore I have made up my mind in the year of 1893 To leave the ancient City of Dundee, Because the citizens and me cannot agree.
The reason why? -- because they disrespect me, Which makes me feel rather discontent.
Therefore to leave them I am bent;
And I will make my arrangements without delay, And leave Dundee some early day.

157

Delboy29,

Dundee 12/01/2007 14:22:32

#147 Wattie

Are you Dave Spart's duller brother ??

This is a forum for comment not a Political Science exam.

Anyway, down with capitalist running dogs and legalised crooks totally...er...crushing the valiant spirit of the working man who strives to...er... (cont on next 7 pages)

158

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 14:34:41

#160 Dunder Heid

Nothing to do with the SNP they have little or no power regarding the running of the "UK" its taxes or investment. They have to ask the begging bowl for money, which they are unlikely to get as Labour will not help them gain a good reputation in local government.

159

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 14:37:09

#160 - You are talking through yer erse!

160

Sambo,

The deep south 12/01/2007 14:38:46

This also happened on Clydeside back in the sixties, we price ourself out of the market.
Unions have driven up wages, they have outlived their usefulness.

161

James England,

12/01/2007 14:40:50

Surely. SCOTLAND must blame itself for the terrible situation it has found itself in by voting for the Labour Government. period.

162

SC,

Dundee 12/01/2007 14:41:46

We're doomed, we're doomed..

First it was the Japanese, then the Korean's. And now the Chinese and, err, Hungarians...

Go back 100 years and it was the Germans and the Americans who were pinching our jobs.

Globalisation has been accused of creating poverty - the race to the bottom - since it was first identifed.

Yet, during that time, the global economy has grown and grown. The poor countries have got richer, the rich countries have got richer.

163

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 14:44:26

#164

I blame the Central belt of Scotland - they are still suffering from mass hypnosis - though I think the spell has just be broken ... hopefully this May will see a difference :-)

164

SC,

Dundee 12/01/2007 14:44:44

160, you are talking rubbish of the highest order!!

But nice try...

165

Everything you do is a balloon,

12/01/2007 14:45:06

Welcome! thrice welcome! to the year 2007, For it is the year I intend to leave Dundee, for Heaven.

I used to make great Cash carbunkles.
My whole family were employed there
(it was invented by my uncle).

Then on the TV came the men in the suits "You are good for nothing you great galloots!"
'The business , we will move to Hungary and in a nash..
For there they have great Ghoulash (and Dumplings I am told but have never tried as I am too old)

Soon the only job left in Dundee
Will be polishing Desperate Dans dirty Knees
So I will go to Hawick , to enter the WoolTrade
As its damn sure Im no good at writing poems.

166

Just me!,

dundee 12/01/2007 14:45:13

go back 100 years and the Indians were taking our jobs because we (Dundonians) went out there built them factories, trained their people and thus began the decline of the jute industry in dundee - so no change there then ...

167

New Town Resident,

12/01/2007 14:45:45

Good exchange of views on labour and capital migration. You can argue free trade and labour mobility every which way of course depending on your priorities/values. Me, I'm for looking after our own first even it means a slighly lower standard of living, otherwise eventually we will all go down the tubes - and I work in private sector manufacturing.

However its sad to see as usual no-one has made the point that the UK taxpayer, including those in Dundee, will be paying many millions of pounds over to Hungary in the EU budget (British payments rising to £13BILLION a year in total by 2012, so Scotlands share will be about £2BILLION). This is to help with their "infrastructure and industrial modernisation and show solidarity" Blair's justification - more British jobs via exports to countries like Hungary - ha, ha, ha.

UK income tax starts at £5225p.a. and eveyone pays VAT. So the Dundee newly redundant will be PAYING HUNGARY TO COMPETE MORE SCOTTISH WORKERS OUT OF WORK.

"Independence in Europe" is not a level playing field (except maybe for the gravy train politicians.)

168

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 14:45:52

#165

Tell that to the Timex, Valentines, NCR, Tesco workers - thousands of them put on the dole - by Globalisation.

169

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 14:47:00

#168

Don't give up the day job ;-)

170

Everything you do is a balloon,

12/01/2007 14:49:19

And to The Tools who write to the poor daily papers.

I say " go ! Get fresh air ! it will make you feel better" !

For typing and bashing when we should be working..

will just get us sacked for dodging and shirking

So endeth the tale , this tale of dundee..

its a place of great clouds, cold , flu and average football teams

171

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 14:50:22

#171

Jeff now come on your forgetting Levi's in all of this

172

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 12/01/2007 14:55:58

Hardly suprising that business wants to leave Scotland.

If you want industry you must have low costs - Scotland (in particular) is just not business friendly ... red tape, rediculous health and saftey, ethnic and sex considerations, litigation happy union orientated left wing employees and councils and trumped up MSPs make life a misery for any business.

ALL industry will eventually move from Scotland if these are the conditions that welcome business - and who could blame them ....

.. The problem is there's not a political party out there that is radical or brave enough to upset the staus quo.

The unions and government intereference have killed great britain ..

173

SC,

Dundee 12/01/2007 14:57:00

But Jeff, the average resident of Dundee is still better off over the lifetime from the benefits of globalisation and capitalism.

Otherwise, NCR would never have come to Scotland in the first place!

Time to move on...

174

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 14:58:22

LOL - my brother-n-law worked as a manager at Levis for 8yrs - they promised ALL the workforce 6 months pay (bonus) for millenium 2000 if they met a target of production.

So they met it and in fact exceeded it - what happened?

They never got the bonus payment - they got redundancy instead. Another fine example of globalisation.

175

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 15:00:53

#176

Everybody in the world has moved on since the invention of the wheel it does not mean we have to be grateful for the crumbs of globalisation.

The reason many U.S. and other companies came to the UK was because of attractive incentives, cheap or free rent and a very good workforces. They take the benefits and leave as soon as they can get a better deal elsewhere.

Now in my book that is not fair and more like exploitation.

Time for you to wake up me thinks ...

176

Bennie,

12/01/2007 15:15:11

Case Study.... REAL FIGURES.
This will help you understand why jobs move abroad.
Based on 1880 hrs per year in the US. That's what the average working (billable hours) annual total per person is in the US.
An average electronics engineer gets paid about $40/ hr and the cost to his company about $72/hr.
He has to pay about $100 a month per person for his health care and a bout $40 a time to visit the doctor.
A guy doing the same job in Scotland gets paid about the same.....cost to the company about the equivalent of $108 per hour. Free healthcare.
The problem is the Scottish "working" population has to subsidize the leaches or pay the maternity or fund the crap NHS.
A nanny state has a cost. A restrictive practices that make thing less efficient as well and you are screwed.
the comparison I showed is for what I know. Here in the US the comparison is made US vs India or US vs Mexico.
We have job issues here because of our high standard of living but due to an economy of scale goods for sale are less expensive that in Scotland.
Because the US market is so huge and flexible we survive but I do encourage everyone to buy from companies that produce at home or provide home country customer service. Protect your own market by paying the extra cash.... as long as it is not too much of a penalty.

177

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 15:24:29

#179
I agree with a lot of what you say - we pay a massive amount to spongers who refuse to work and would prefer to sit at home claiming dole or disability and we also pay a lot on failed economic migrants we have failed to remove (they call themselves ayslum seekers)
We have begun paying them thousands of pounds to just leave when they are caught as it will cost less than to go through the process of removing them.

As for Brits having a sense of togetherness re: buying local goods etc - say as in France for example forget it ... I fear as a nation the UK is selfish and lost.

178

Voldemort,

Edinburgh 12/01/2007 15:35:37

Jeff I' with Scott ola foam ... as long as you think that companies 'exploit' their workers (usually by paying them enough to live on buy a house run a car etc etc) - why on earth would you set up here?

You have hundreds of countries and millions of workers who would give their eye teeth for these sorts of opportunities and all yer average 'doon trooden, awfi expoited' Scot can do is moan about it ... it is a privaledge to be in gainful employment to allow you ta have the standard of life you would not get begging in the streets ... as long as we think other wise we are cannon fodder until there is nothing of substance left ...

Having said that the Government is doing a pretty good job of 'employing' folk so maybe there's no short term requirement for real jobs ... well until the money completely run out and somebody with some common sense will have to come and sort out the mess that the Liberals, labour and the SNP have made of our country ...

179

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 15:43:42

#181 the man who's name we never speak.

Never said companies exploit there workers.....

Companies have got into the habit of lying to there workers (Shafting).

180

Richard C,

Aberdeen 12/01/2007 15:46:55

Hungary is a member of the EU so they have to comply with the same EU regulations we do. The fact is it's cheaper to manufacture things in Hungary compared to Scotland. The loss of jobs from Dundee was, to a large extent, almost inevitable following the expansion of the EU and accession of relatively poor countries such as Hungary.

Likewise when the UK negotiated opt-outs from the EU's social chapter countries like France and Germany complained as we took jobs away from countries where the social chapter was fully implemented. We're only getting a taste of our own medicine now. Perhaps if we had the same labour laws as most of the EU the cost of making the workers at NCR redundant would be high enough for the management to chose to invest in Dundee instead of taking the easy option of moving to where the labour is cheapest. Isn't it a case of easy come easy go?

181

Scott 'Ola' Foam,

In Aberdeen Fae Dundee 12/01/2007 15:50:09

#182

I thought it was NCR or who have just taken away there jobs but I suppose I must be stupid.

I thought it was the Chancellor that dictates Corporation Tax and all other taxation, but I suppose i'm stupid.

I believe Government through Scottish Enterprise decide on Investment in business within our country but maybe i'm wrong and stupid.

But then again Rules But no Rulers, I do believe it is the labour party that rules this 'Union' and make policy decisions.

I would be rather worried if it was the EU after all who literally run the UK we dont vote them in.
I do believe they have some influence on our country but not to the extent you imply, but then again I may be stupid as you have clearly stated.

182

Bennie,

12/01/2007 15:52:05

Jobs don't cme to the UK anymore not just because of cost.
It is just too difficult these days to run a business and the tax companies have to pay....yikes.
Working within the EU and local rules and the lack of flexibility of the workforce makes it just too hard to concentrate on being successful.
The can't do attitudes of "not my job" or the government should be doing blah blah blah is just mind numbing.
Elsewhere in the world people want jobs and want to seen as doing the best they can.

183

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 15:54:27

#181

Nice to see that Edinburgh folk are as ignorant as ever.

You said: " .... blah,blah, blah, ..... and sort out the mess that the Liberals, labour and the SNP have made of our country ..."

When were the SNP in government in Scotland?

I believe the lying Labour party and their bedfellow the Fib Dems have.

184

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 15:56:17

#182

What a meaningless post! Get back to your unionist den ;-)

185

Richard C,

Aberdeen 12/01/2007 16:07:11

It's not the fault of the EU. Hungary is in the EU. Just like we "took" jobs from other EU countries that fully implemented to social chapter, countries like Hungary can take jobs from us because their labour is cheaper.

186

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 16:14:08

#191

Please try and actually post some of the mastery, wisdom, erudition or facts you talk about.

Not a single post you have made on this thread contains any of the above.

A wind-bag of the higest order you are.

187

Booster,

West Lothian 12/01/2007 16:19:07

The lesson for others working for multi national companies is simple.

They have no interest in your welfare other than where it may be to the detriment of their business.
Your employment with them can end at very short notice, it's nothing personal, it's just business.

Similarly, if they come pleading to you for some special "effort" - appraise it coldly. Respond in a manner where you gain the best advantage. It's just business after all.

188

Patrick/Edinburgh,

here and there 12/01/2007 16:44:02

There is a strong reason to be concerned about job loss in Scotland. This is wrong if this company could not be there to stand up for the Scottish workers. However, an employment policy or practice should not be tied to a social agenda based on emotions or feelings. Where is the leadership that says stop the drain'? Six hundred fifty workers, lost from an Ohio Campany, who knows all about industry being from the rust belt of America. Wheres the loyalty to the workers, to the company, to the country. Myself being from America, I believe in the Scottish people, I also understand that everyone cant have everything the way they want life to be. The stability of the country can be effected severly by the continued loss of employment. immigration, and loss of identity. This company needed not relocate but expand into the EU. This way bringing benefits to both peoples.

189

The Strategist,

12/01/2007 16:54:03

Someone needs to explain why it is that Germany - not exactly a low tax economy - can maintain it's position as the worlds largest exporter of goods, own companies such as Siemens, Volkswagen and BMW (who of course now own the Mini/Rolls Royce Cars and Bentley as well) as well as many others in sectors where Scotland should be flourishing but isn't (e.g. renewable energy) whilst the UK has effectively given up on manufacturing and developing technology.

At the same time I'd like to know why Scandinavia isn't affected in the same way (Ericcson, Nokia etc) and even good old France with companies like Alcatel, Thales, Airbus etc are doing better than we are.

The answer is of course that all these other countries are doing well because they have hugely supportive financial institutions and very supportive Governments that believe in "the national interest".

On the other hand what we have are set of financial institutions that are completely isolated from the needs of the economy and a Govt that would much prefer to let others develop technologies so we can buy what want from them when we need it.

Without changing both these sets of attitudes this country is well and truly stuffed.

190

DaveJ,

Perthshire 12/01/2007 16:55:33

Industries and companies have lifecycles. Shipbuilding, coal, steelmaking, jute, textiles and so on, have all come and gone. In reality NCR has provided up to 6000 jobs over some 60 years and like IBM was one of the first of the First Sunrise industries. Honeywell, Motorola, National Semiconductor, Compaq, Timex, Hewlett-Packard and many, many more followed. These companies were technology based and employed many highly qualified people but they also employed many, many more mid-skill and untrained workers.

Many of these First Sunrise companies have now waned and at best now focus on product development, retaining the high skill base but shedding manufacturing jobs. Losses lead to under-investment and then decline before the inevitable end. As we witness the end of the First Sunrise it is hard not to be bitter; critical of foreign companies who have no particular loyalty, who take the money, fail and run; critical of governments who sit on their hands; envious of peer Nations who seem to make a better fist of it.

In realty we are witnessing the rhythm of commercial life. Let's challenge NCR about their motives. Let's challenge Government to make a much better job of attracting, developing and retaining world-class companies. Though let's not berate the good people of Dundee who have to bear the consequences of failure, as they have done before and doubtless will do again.

Thinking about the way forward, the vast majority of computer processor chips are made by Intel and AMD and these are fabricated in the US, Germany and Ireland; these are not low wage economies. Computer memory chips are mostly made in the low wage emerging economies of the far east. Both types of chips are very capital intensive requiring immense investment in state of the art equipment. So what is the difference? The processor is the premium priced core of the PC whereas the memory is a cost driven commodity. One is profitable and one is not. The lesson: shrewd governments a

191

DaveJ,

Perthshire 12/01/2007 16:56:32

Should we be disparaging about those First Sunrise companies and the Government of the day? Sixty years of jobs for Dundee is not a bad effort in a way. Do you remember how bad it could be? Do you remember Roots at Linwood? In comparison with that act of interventionist necrophilia, NCR is a triumph. But we should be disparaging about failed companies; companies that bleat about competition, bleat about safety and employment legislation, bleat about unions, bleat about labour costs, bleat about leaves on the line. Failed companies are the responsibility of failed management and failed management alone. And we should be disparaging about Governments. Failed economies are the responsibility of failed Governments.

In many ways the First Sunrise was a good effort. The commercial life cycle is the reality though, be it in jute or cash dispensers, shipbuilding or microelectronics. Governments can never rest. Where is the Second Sunrise; the next generation? What happened to Optoelectronics? Where are the major employers? Where are the entrepreneurs? What will happen to Lifesciences? Where is the grand plan for heaven's sake!

There an enormous iceberg out there called economic failure and we are just shuffling the deckchairs. We are preoccupied with how badly the deckchairs have been shuffled, who should shuffle the deckchairs next, should we cut off our bit of deck to shuffle on and who owns the deckchairs anyway. Meantime the good people of Dundee are taking a kicking and there is more to come.

Without being party political; who has the telescope; where is the plan?

Deckchairs anyone?

192

Shaelyn,

12/01/2007 16:57:00

Jeff - I agree that globalization is destructive...but for a different reason. It undermines our local culture and community. Huge, multi-national companies replace the local groceries and pubs that know you by name but have to charge a wee bit more because they don't buy a million widgets or bottles at once. A company like NCR pays a wage that is better than you can get anywhere else in town, then the price of a flat goes higher that most people can afford. Everyone in government seems to think that bigger is better and more taxes will solve all our problems. But driving out people who have lived among us for generations and bringing in those that are only here for the money "globalizes" our communities right out of existence! Until there are enough people who are willing to start local businesses that provide for the needs of our towns who, in turn, support them, instead of only measuring success by the almightly pound, we will continue to lose our cultural identity and those who value it! Money and cheap gadgets aren't the only way to measure a standard of living. Those expats in Vietnam, the U.S., or (maybe) Hungary...are they there to love and build a community? Will they care about their neighbors and cherish their home...or will it just be a job where, at the end, you simply kiss 30 years of your life goodbye? Simplistic...yea, and I know you have to put food on the table and a roof over the heads of your family. But GDP and national statistics are taking the place of the individual along the slippery slope to making Scotland nothing more than another dot on the map of the EU or the world.

193

JBM,

Ireland 12/01/2007 17:02:08

Numerous references to Ireland here. In Ireland, everyone who wants to work can find a job. Not necessarily in the field/position they would like. If you live outside of the main urban areas, work can be difficult to find. Many people spend a couple of hours commuting each way every day. It is safe to say that it is a fairly prosperous country, BUT, the younger Irish have the mentality of the yuppies from the Maggie Thatcher era. Its a very materialistic place now. The hospitality, generosity and traditions of the people which made Ireland so endearing sadly will be lost within a generation in my opinion. The Eastern Europeans, like in Scotland and the UK as a whole, are here in vast numbers and take the unskilled jobs. They seem to work a lot harder than the unskilled Irish workers, especially the younger Irish and they turn up for work on a Monday morning. Taxes are low and entrepreneurs are encouraged so the economic prosperity looks likely to continue.
Around ten years ago, just before the days of the Celtic Tiger, and ten years after arriving in Ireland to work for a multi-national (sorry, a US company with overseas branches) the parent company decided to shut down the Irish arm despite it being the most productive and profitable in the division and transfer part of the operation to Mexico and part to the USA (R&D). Quality problems followed in Mexico and the operation was then transferred to India within 2 years. Lord only knows where it is now. 100 people were employed one day and the next day they were looking for work. Goods jobs were not easy to come by.
But there is one characteristic which seems to differentiate the Irish from the Scots and it is that they are willing to travel to work, they are willing to move home to work. The Scots, on the whole, are not. Dundonians will stay in Dundee even if there is no work. So will Glaswegians, Aberdonians etc.
A generous welfare state will not dissuade them.

194

Jeff H,

Dundee 12/01/2007 17:05:01

I suppose this was inevitable, but still its a great shock. Edinburgh being the caital and Glasgow being the biggest city have the ability to support themselves, but I fear for both Dundee and Aberdeen (the oil will run out eventually). Still there is alot of good work going on the city with the two universities, the arts through DCA and Rep. We have some great tourist attractions such as Discovery and Unicorn, Verdant Works, Sensation, Mills Observatory the Mcmanus Galleries etc. Hopefully the work at the central waterfront can progress the city www.dundeewaterfront.com
I can see Dundee eventually as a commuting city to the Capital like I suppose Brighton is to London.

195

Richard C,

Aberdeen 12/01/2007 17:11:16

The British government's industrial policy seems to favour two sectors: the City (financials) and defence (arms exports). Interest rates are manipulated in the interest of the City and bribes for arms deals to dodgy regimes are encouraged for the sake of the British arms industry. These two sectors are basically embeded in London and the south-east of England. What we need is a government in Scotland that basically has no choice but to maintain and promote Scottish jobs and the Scottish economy.

196

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 17:15:33

#200

Your contribution to this debate is minimal at best and in my opinion immature.

I do not believe capital flight is envitable under EU rules. Perhaps you would like to debate (not argue) why it is so.

197

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 17:35:25
198

Alistair Stewart,

DUNDEE 12/01/2007 17:35:54

ok gotta leave after a minimal day of work and more posting on here!!

199

gaffer,

B.C. Canada 12/01/2007 17:49:09

It would be really nice to have some comment here from the SMP`S, listnening to what they would have to say about all thes proposed moves from National companies, what would they do if Scotland became a republic..

200

,

12/01/2007 17:53:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
201

Shaelyn,

12/01/2007 17:56:31

So right Casey. So long as our financial security depends on companies that are based somewhere else and have no permanent ties or loyalty to Scotland, we have no security.

202

Keith Lagden,

Sacramento 12/01/2007 18:06:17

# well said Brin, Livingston has had it's toll of Tax breakers who then move on whithout repaying any public money. Boycot0t the goods where possible. Look what happened to the state of the art NEC plant, Motorola (to name a few) once the breaks were used back to Rosville, Ca, USA,(for NEC) I had a bad deal with Sanyo in 1979, and still won't use or buy any thing that company makes or has involvement with.

Wreak havoc with them

203

Stuart W,

Dundee 12/01/2007 18:20:21

Interesting that the other big news story in Dundee this week was the building of a new headquarters and the creation of new jobs by financial services sector firm Alliance Trust.

This neatly juxtaposes the migration of the labour intensive industries abroad and the increasing specialisation of the UK in highly skilled sectors like financial services - Dundee this week has merely been a microcosm of the UK generally over the past few years.

Of course, that doesn't diminish to loss to the NCR workers and Dundee generally, but I suppose we have to look on the bright side, and I think that while those that are complaining about Tesco, NCR et letting the workforce and Dundee down have a point, they do sound a bit naive in that they seem to expect that those commerical behemoths put anything other than the bottom line at the top of their priorities.

204

Edward,

12/01/2007 18:29:55

There has been a lot said about world price, globalisation, cost of labour here there and everywhere. But nothing has been said about those 650 NCR workers, who have just been made redundant!
Frankly it was a disgrace that the US directors didnt have the Balls to actually come over and an tell the workers directly. Giving the advise by Video is no better than being told by text message!, its a diplorable disgrace. The NCR magagement in Dundee are no better as they would have known weeks in advance of what was coming, as decisions like this do not happen overnight but are looked at months in advance. Most probably at the time of the opening of the NCR plant in Hungary, when the mangement had the brass to say jobs were safe in Dundee, so there are cupable for outright lies.
The other thing that is missing in all this is the Scottish Executive led by that idiot Jack the joke McConnel!, not a peep from him. We have Nicol Stephen, Scotland's Enterprise Minister, announcing the formation of a rapid reaction force to address the Dundee jobs crisis.
Big b***dy deal!, Sorry Nicol, Im sure youve heard the term horse bolting and closing the barn door. Its to little to late!
Hopefully in May the good people of Dundee can vent there feelings and turf out Labour as there just a bunch of spineless idiots. Scotland need afermitive action in Government, thats going to keep a closer eye on what business wants and to attract inward investment as well as building up business in Scotland, instead of waiting for the train to leave the platform without them.

205

Richard C,

Aberdeen 12/01/2007 18:44:10

Who can we blame for this? It's not really NCR's fault, they're playing by the rules and are just trying to maximise profits. The workers at NCR no doubt worked hard and were paid a wage necessary for a reasonable standard of living in Scotland. The fact wages in Hungary are a lot less than in Scotland is nobody's fault. I would like to know if this manufacturing facility was in, say, France, Germany or Scandinavia would it be closing? Do these countries not demand a higher price when companies relocate such as in this case? Perhaps the blame should lie at Westminster where the government has chosen to opt out of aspects the EU social chapter so that companies can more easily pack up and leave if they deem it economically advantageous. If the costs associated with making 650 workers redundant were higher then the economics of relocating to Hungary might not be so attractive. It's just a thought.

206

Carolyn,

Texas 12/01/2007 18:50:42

I didn't bother to read the whole story as it is close to the one we have here. For us it is the illegals coming across the border.

Why pay an unskilled person minimum wage when you can pay an illegal for less than $5.00 an hour. No benefits or unions to bother with. If he gets hurt just hire his brother.

Until people stop buying the lies the CEOs tell and realize that this harms all workers, it will go on.

207

Richard C,

Aberdeen 12/01/2007 18:57:49

Carolyn:- The workers in Hungary are paid a lot less than in Scotland but are legal workers. What we have here is a case of a company taking advantage of low wages in east Europe and still having full access to the EU market. And Hungary, being a member of the EU, will still have to comply with the same EU regulations that pertain everywhere in the EU. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Hungary has adopted all EU social chapter rules while the UK still seeks opt-outs on the grounds that labour flexibility creates more jobs.

208

nottoobrite,

12/01/2007 19:03:29

Having been to Dundee many times and enjoyed every minute that I spent there I am very sorry for those that have lost there jobs, but being blind when you can see is no excuse, those that are not skilled and making nearly 9 pounds an hour must be among the most highest paid in the world! Here in the industrial North of Germany (Hamburg ) 9 pounds an hour is a medical Doctors wages, just remember next time around, vote as always Labour or get out!

209

JMG,

South England 12/01/2007 19:03:32

As a Scot who moved to England for work reasons at the age of 50 some ten years ago, and who has travelled the world meeting Scottish people wherever I went, I am disgusted with JBM 201's comment, which to remind you all was:

'The Scots, on the whole, are not. Dundonians will stay in Dundee even if there is no work. So will Glaswegians, Aberdonians etc.'

When Lord Robens shut the Scottish mines in 1965 my father took my younger brothers to England because that's where the work was, and to add to that my oldest son works in England and is prepared to go wherever the work is.

I am retired but am trying to start up my own company and I similarly will go where the work is, so if JBM cannot support this distorted and unsubstantiated view of the Scottish people’s ability and skill to change and go where the work is, then the rest of us should take it with a pinch of salt because that’s what it is worth.

Also he should look at achievements of some famous Scottish people who have left the Scottish shores and become mega successful such as Andrew Carnegie, who would turn in his grave at such a distorted unjust and unsubstantiated view of him and his people.

210

Martha,

12/01/2007 19:09:33

International corporations have no loyalty except to money. The Hungarian workers are disciplined and reliable-- can the Scots say the same?

Remember that for 650 people in America, their jobs were lost when the positions were moved to Scotland. I suppose you think that's ok-- but alas, business will always seek out the lowest wages and the lowest labor costs. They have to do this to be competitive.

For example, how many Rolls Royces are sold each year, compared to Toyotas? Rolls Royces are labor-intensive, and each one used to be, until fairly recently, made by one skilled and well-paid mechanic from the first bolt to the last. The assembly line approach ensured that Rolls would only be for very wealthy people, while ordinary folks got their cars off a production line in Detroit. Now, robots are replacing people on the line to hold the cost of the finished item down-- but assemblers are being laid off.

So, it would behoove all these under-educated Scots to go back to school, learn some technology, and make themselves competitive in the labor market. The East Indians are doing it, as are the Chinese, the Malaysians, and the Eastern Europeans. Your problem is you've been a socialist state for way too long-- and those days are definitely numbered. You have to attend continuing education classes to keep up with your counterparts in the developing world.

211

,

12/01/2007 19:15:34
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 281356, Article id was mapped to record!
212

Martha,

12/01/2007 19:18:06

Shaelyn: no company on earth has any loyalty to a specific nation. Companies answer to bondholders and stockholders, and these investors live all over the world. It's up to the company to maintain a good bottom line-- if that means picking up and moving to eastern Europe, then that is exactly what the company can be expected to do, because otherwise the company will lose its investors.

213

Martha,

12/01/2007 19:19:42

Rulesbutnotrulers, you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that the SNP will attract business to Scotland. It will do exactly the reverse.

214

Richard C,

Aberdeen 12/01/2007 19:20:22

What I think we need is a Scottish government in charge of the Scotish economy. That doesn't guarantee jobs will stay forever but it will have to be more focussed on the Scottish economy. Like I said in previous posts, Westminster is mainly concerned with the well-being of the City and the UK arms industry while Scotland has to deal with free-market economic pressures and the absence of a government that really cares.

215

JMG,

South England 12/01/2007 19:30:27

Hi Richard C #214

Closure of the Caterpillar factory under the Tories late eighties early nineties comes to mind, so labour are no different from the Tories in this regard, none of them are able to learn the lessons of the past.

Who do we vote for next? Oops I forgot that I am a Scot living in England who doesn't have a clue what is going on in Scotland because the media do not discuss Scottish issues.

Scotland is out of sight out of mind in the eyes of the British, oops Scottish ministers (Blair, Brown & Reid etc) who are too busy fighting fires in England (Home office, Iraq etc) to worry about poor Scotland.

And then there is the Scottish pseudo parliament designed by Blair the illusionist to consider, the King is in the altogether and has no clothes on comes to mind as the Act of Union already gave us our own laws and own monetary system, so what’s new?

Where is the British economy going, we don't know because the King and his cronies are to busy looking after their interests; whilst the King jets off on holiday to god knows where, trying his best to look green, the rest fight amongst themselves on who is going to take power when the illusionist leaves.

Need I say more?

216

Richard C,

Aberdeen 12/01/2007 19:30:35

Martha:- Why didn't you move the business to Ireland? They have low taxes, low crime, educated workers etc. Lots of American business has set up shop in Ireland. Did you even look into it?

217

Richard C,

Aberdeen 12/01/2007 19:34:13

Martha:- You've told us why you didn't locate your publishing business in Scotland; now I would like to know why you didn't locate in Ireland? Or you could even have located the business in England.

218

Shaelyn,

12/01/2007 20:06:23

Martha - You are wrong. There are, indeed, companies, often fairly large ones, that have a great deal of loyalty to their country and heritage...and still manage to make a decent profit. Today, with the internet and global shipping, it is quite possible to maintain a worldwide presence without sacrificing your home or your principles. As far as your opinion of Scottish workers, I would suggest that your observations were made through a veil of fear and prejudice. Yes, there are drunks and layabouts in Scotland, just like anywhere else. Then again, there has been one murder a day in New Orleans and the drunks, dopers, and general criminal element in the Texas border towns will give anywhere a run for its money. Perhaps you should consider what you or your company are offering that attracts those who set such a low standard for themselves. Those who told you to look elsewhere weren't suggesting we don't need businesses in Scotland...they were telling you that we want people here who respect our country, our people, and our way of life.

219

Sambo,

The deep south 12/01/2007 20:18:34

Bottom line folks,
Scotland is not a good place to do business.

220

DaveJ,

Perthshire 12/01/2007 20:19:11

Hey Martha, it had been my privilege to run companies in both the US and Scotland and to take Scots to the US and vice versa. Frankly, I do not recognise the Scots you are describing. If there is a job do be done they will always rise to the occasion. Successful business leaders rarely if ever rubbish the citizens and the culture of any country they wish to do business in or with. Dundee has a pretty good track record in printing and publishing so come and give it a whirl. You will be really surprised.

221

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta,California 12/01/2007 20:23:26

#219 Martha,
You really do rant on at times. Chill- baby- chill (assuming u are a female).

Your company and all other companies in our capitalist system could not function without the scientific inventions from the Scottish peoples. So stop beating on the Scottish people unless u want to sound like an idiot.

It’s a totally human reaction for these workers at NCR to be more than upset by the news that they no longer have a job there.

What gets me it the manner which NCR's spineless CEO deliver the bad news to those workers.

Martha your comment "Your problem is you've been a socialist state for way too long-- and those days are definitely numbered"
What the hell does that mean?

Are you implying that we replace a socialist state with a communist state? Actually we already have done that in the USA. It’s called CHINA.

We have sent our manufacturing to China, a communist country, where 12 million of its citizens rot in jails because they spoke out against their masters.

Plus we sent 80% of our service industry to India the world's biggest democracy; India operates a "caste system”. And in the caste system, lower level workers are treated like you treat a slave or worse.

So Martha take your pick;

(a) Socialist state Scotland (drink less than Irish)
(b) Communist state China (no free speech)
(c) Democratic state India (has a caste system)
(d) Republic state USA (world's #1 WMD arsenal)

Like I say Martha ....Chill - baby - chill

Galactic Cannibal..........(Liam O'Brien)

222

Ewen Miler,

Wiltshire 12/01/2007 20:32:02

Another example of this so-called special relationship with the U.S?

Whether we like it or not, Gordon Brown's going to have to make it more attractive to do business in the UK: reduce Corporation tax and also adopt the low flat tax regime of many of these Eastern European countries.

223

jaydot,

12/01/2007 20:32:34

Martha, you are very bold to slate our country. Of course there are no drunks, drug adicts and criminals in America. The country that sleeps with guns under their pillows, the country that that invades others under the veil of human rights (nothing to do with oil!). The nation that is poluting this world, a racist and selfish nation, I could go on......So before you start making comments on the mainly kind and welcoming people of Scotland, take a good look in the mirror.

By the way, these 650 jobs were not taken from America, these ATMs were designed, developed and manufactured in Dundee from day one.......not invented by the Yanks.

224

Sambo,

The deep south 12/01/2007 20:33:26

One pound fifty an hour in Hungary Vs nine pounds in Dundee, (do the math)
Fish fingers in Hull are relocating 600 jobs to Germany for the same reason. You can't compete Scotland, you're too expensive!

225

Blairs,

12/01/2007 20:36:02

The thought of Scots not getting up to look for work is quite laughable. I work in North Africa, most of the people I socialise with are either locals or Scots. Also, look at NZ, Aus, South Africa, Canada and the US. No Scots there are there? None in the SE of England making their fortunes either I suppose. The Scots are like driven snow, we get everywhere. The problem is that so many of us have gone off to work in a more beneficial environment that there are fewer skilled personnel left.
As for globalisation. The country I am in is currently sheding manufacturing jobs, losing out to Asia. There two remaining hopes are tourism and natural gas (sound familiar?).Now if you consider a university lecturer gets paid £350 per month here and a policeman £200 with hourly rates being down in the pennies per hour for the unskilled one can only imagine how cheap the rates are in Asia.
Scotland's greatest export is its people. Always has been, whether we remain marketable with the education standard plummeting only time will tell.

226

Richard C,

Aberdeen 12/01/2007 20:37:27

Sambo:- But labour costs in Germany are higher than in Scotland or England. Try to find another reason why the jobs are moving to Germany.

227

just another expat - detatched from reality,

Sweden 12/01/2007 20:42:22

Fair play to the Hungarians! They're poorer than most of W Europe so the new jobs are presumably very welcome and needed.

#37 Aroha: agree with 99% especially that we shouldn't romaticise unskilled labour.

At the same time it's a devastating blow for those personally affected in Dundee. Many will hopefully find jobs quickly (as was the case for Motorola staff made redundant in Livingston a few years ago). Some, however, won't, and it will be very tough for them and their families. Let's hope NCR spends some money on re-training and job matching. Politicians should focus on getting them to do this rather than grandstanding about scandalous job losses.

#170: EU enlargement opens a fast growing region to Scottish exports. Subsidies to Hungary from the UK via the EU budget will be dwarfed by increased exports and ome of it will come straight back through profits of British companies that win contracts in the new EU members. If Hungary was not in the EU it would be even freer to attract jobs from Scotland through govt subsidies, tax breaks, etc.

#112: Free-trade in the EU and globally can and does increase wealth and living standards ON AVERAGE and has definitely kept inflation in check. Prices for Consumers goods like TVs may not always fall in nominal terms, but you get a lot more for your money now than 10 years ago!

On the other hand, the localised impact of free trade and asymetric liberalisation can be extemely negative. We need a balanced approach to free trade where the developing countries get a fair deal (e.g. they should be able to sell their agricultural products in the EU, US & Japan without facing huge tariffs).

There IS a political problem in the EU though which is that some members (actually all, including the UK) don't always abide by the rules/spirit of the internal market. If we want a level playing field, could it be that the answer is not to copy France's protectionism but, rather, to support the Europ

228

Sambo,

The deep south 12/01/2007 20:46:24

I see where 400,000 Scottish workers are to get 8 more paid holidays next year.
The unions are happy!

229

Blairs,

12/01/2007 20:47:05

The cost of borrowing money is significantly cheaper. They have increased the working week over the past 4 years and given no pay rises, I think they cut holidays to. Also, they are very efficient, have an educated work force and have generally changed their whole economic model ? Hence the reason the Euro is a bit schizo at the moment. Very strong economy in Germany with France, Italy, Spain and Greece all hitting the skids trying to squeeze interest rates and get them back into their own control, contrary to the rules of the ECB which is now run by a Frenchman that does what he is told by Paris.

230

G. Miller,

Alpine CA. 12/01/2007 20:47:57

Why are people still surprised when these multinationals move manufacturing to areas with cheap labour. Forty years ago Scotland was on the receiving end of this philosophy when English and American companies were closing older facilities in the home country and sending them to Scotland. Cumbernauld was a favourite recipient of these moves.
It is a real heartbreaker I agree and there is normally nothing that the politicians can do about it as these companies are a law unto themselves and receive huge tax breaks and assistance fom the ares that they move to.

231

william wallace,

Stirling 12/01/2007 20:48:06

230* You seem to have all the answers.Pity they are all arseways.

232

Blairs,

The Magreb 12/01/2007 20:53:48

My post in 238 was referring to why Germany is attracting jobs even though their average rates per hour is higher than here. They are also tougher on immigration than Britain which should drive rates down not up in the UK.

Off to the local pub to have a shandy.

233

Oor Wullie,

Dundee 12/01/2007 20:59:42

Whit aboot the Dandy and the Beano. They'll be next - mark ma wurds.

234

,

12/01/2007 21:00:50
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 281513, Article id was mapped to record!
235

coventry scouser,

Coventry uk 12/01/2007 21:03:34

We returned to coventry after 23 good years in glenrothes fife and we found desecration of peoples lives is the norm in this raped country.
My wife worked for CGC in Dundee for two and half years and often remarked that her fellow workers were in a class of their own ie honesty and straight forwardness which is sadly lacking over the border.
I worked in the 1960's, in coventry, with a dundonian who worked for Timex and after that company disappeared, he had no option but to move to Coventry as no work was obtainable in the dundee area and his family depended on his wages to live. He said it broke his heart and moral to leave family and friends in Dundee but he knew he had made the right decision coming to coventry and could his family's future with a degree of certainty.
We have had recently decimation of the last car factoring plant in coventry and 2300 lost their jobs, surprise surprise owned by a french company and what was done by this totally inept government , b....r all as is the norm.
We feel for the people of dundee as we have scottish friends there and this is beyond comprehension .
Finally, good luck dundee , now and in the future YOU DESERVE IT.

236

copath,

12/01/2007 21:08:21

£8.75 for unskilled labour - there is your answer....

237

jaydot,

12/01/2007 21:11:53

Lets get a few facts down now:

I am not putting down any of the factory workers in Dundee, I know a lot of them. There were many hard working people in there, however, driven by a few, they collectively negotiated yearly pay rises well above inflation, while at the same time, R&D staff had received, in most cases 0% or very slightly above. Hence the £8.75 per hour for unskilled labourers.

They were loyal and worked the hours when requested - true, but the were paid generous overtime rates. They were paid excessive bonuses to meet year end targets, targets that should have been easily achieved throughout the year. Staff in R&D get no paid overtime...but work the extra hours.

This has evolved over years....in the good days when Dundee was the only ATM plant, lots of money was being made and paid. Times changed but the culture didn't. It's very sad for these people who will now suffer through no real fault of their own (the bulk of them).

So what Lies ahead? Dundee will move on, unfortunately (for the shop floor workers), the jobs that are coming in are medical, university, bio sciences & financial etc. This is great for the city and will help it prosper, but this will just make the great divide between the have & have nots, greater.

238

coventry scouser,

coventry uk 12/01/2007 21:16:21

previously entered as coventry scouser

239

coventry scouser,

coventry uk 12/01/2007 21:17:15

my comments on this was previously entered as coventry scouser

240

jaydot,

12/01/2007 21:17:54

Coventry Scouser. Thank you for your kind comments. The majority of people in Dundee are good people, we get many compliments from visitors and tour guide writers about the people. unfortunatley, people in other areas in Scotland take great pleasure in slating us....maybe it is jealousy!

241

stevie z,

edinburgh 12/01/2007 21:23:30

cut the public sector by three-quarters, increase unemployment by at least 500% and scrap the welfare system - get Scotland on par with developing countries, where it should rightfully be. Independence - a fantasy of the ignorant. 100 years of squander and it it payback time. VOTERS wake up - you've elected the decision makers. As for me, I going abroad where I will die, away from the idiocy that permeates the management of this once great country.

242

Oor Wullie,

Dundee 12/01/2007 21:30:44

It's a global market these days, dog eat dog as far as the corporations go, and would take intervention by our spineless politicians ( like price protection ) where we pay higher retail prices to protect our jobs from being stolen underneath us by those invested in through the public purse. Harldy part of our Global or EU credentials though. Tough decisions have to be made if we want to stop the rot, but I doubt there is anyone in our UK or Scottish parliament with the skill or determination or who even cares as long as their jeely piece lands butter side up. A sad day ...

243

Sambo,

The deep south 12/01/2007 21:31:15

I too feel sorry for the Dundee workers however Scotland does not offer companies an industrial base where they can be profitable anymore. The wage base is too high, unions have driven it there.
Sure Scottish tourism has increased but if all Dundee can offer is Robertsons jam, then you all need to just open wee shops and sell teddy bears in kilts.

244

Sambo,

The deep south 12/01/2007 21:34:10

Speaking of Robertsons jam, remember when they had the wee golliwog on the lid.

245

Richard C,

Aberdeen 12/01/2007 21:34:11

Some people seem to think the fault lies only with unskilled labour, which is without a doubt more expensive in Scotland than Hungary, but so is skilled labour more expensive. You can hire a university educated programmer or systems engineer in Hungary for about 20% of the cost of the same in Scotland. Are we all paid too much? Not if you want to buy a house and live in Scotland. So we can't compete with Hungary, Poland, Romania etc. on wage costs - that's undeniable. Borrowing costs are lower in the $Euro-zone too. Maybe it's time we adopted the $Euro. Or we could do like Ireland and reduce corporate tax rates. We've got to compete somehow. We need to be able to address these issues now, not wait 20 years for Westminster to wake up!

246

jaydot,

12/01/2007 21:43:10

Sambo....I don't think you are allowed to call it that now.

247

JohnnyM,

12/01/2007 21:44:34

My heart goes out to all the workers who have lost their jobs. I suppose this is the sign of the times and really no manufacturing facility in the UK is safe. I really think the goverment ought to be doing more to help encourgae new businesses to start up or companies to locate in Scotland. Tax levels should be dropped and goverment funds redirected towards such schemes. Just today I read that the annual UK military defence spending amounts to around £30 billion (possibly more) - I can think of lots of other things that money can be used for!

248

jaydot,

12/01/2007 21:54:23

The defence spending is so high because puppet Blair has the hand of Muppet Bush. Perhaps if Britain was European rather than American we would have never had to rely on that nation and their "jobs"

249

GP,

12/01/2007 22:45:55

197#
you mention the coal industry - let me expand your knowledge of the Scottish coal field.
The biggest cost to the Scottish deep mine coalfield was?
The headquarters in london!
Yes the headquarters in London.
Without this plus the never ending RFI's from the department of energy (also in london) at great cost the coalfield coulkd supply coal at less cost than the imports than destroyed it.

250

George Mack,

Adelaide 12/01/2007 23:07:35

So, George Devlin agees it was a great job and he was paid 8.75 pounds an hour!

Is it any wonder then why NCR moved its operations to Budapest?

251

zigzag,

12/01/2007 23:08:08

I worked at both NCR Dundee and NCR Waterloo.
Since the late 70s, the Mantra of NCR had become meet the bottom line with payroll dollars.

Upper Management got paid for meeting bottom line dollar objectives. NOT productivity, So BAD MANAGEMENT REWARDED...WORKERS GIVEN THE SHAFT.

Watch how the pensions get stripped with NCR's next move.

Do I smell class action lawsuit?

252

jaydot,

12/01/2007 23:19:40

259: Agree totally,It's unfortunate that he came out first, full of knowledge and caught the attention of the press....with all of his his two year experience! It's people like hime that give the workers a bad name....he should be ashamed amitting to that rate, I bet the cleaners and canteen staff, slightly more skilled than him, were getting a lot less.

253

,

12/01/2007 23:39:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 281652, Article id was mapped to record!
254

babba,

dundee 13/01/2007 00:42:37

#JBM 201
I AM FROM DUBLIN AND I THINK I CAN COMMENT ON YOUR COMMENTS AND MAYBE HELP YOU TO UNDERSTAND. IRELAND WAS NOT ALWAYS AS WELL OFF AS IT IS TODAY.I LEFT DUBLIN 12 YEARS AGO TO FIND WORK.I MOVED TO LONDON AND MET MANY SCOTS ON THE SAME MISSION AS ME.I MET MY GIRLFRIEND WHO IS SCOTTISH IN LONDON.DUNDEE IS QUITE SIMLAR TO THE DUBLIN I LEFT.ITS IS A LOVELY CITY.IF A CHANGE IN POLITCAL PARTYS CAN TURN DUBLIN INTO THE CITY IT IS TODAY I DO NOT SEE ANY REASON DUNDEE CAN NOT DO THE SAME.I KNOW DUBLIN IS PROOF OF THIS.I KNOW MANY SCOTTISH PEOPLE WILL BE OFFENDED BY YOUR COMMENTS AS THEY ARE NOT TRUE.IF PEOPLE IN DUNDEE ARE HAVING A HARD TIME AT THE MOMENT AND WISH TO RIDE OUT THE STORM AND REMAIN IN SCOTLAND THIS IS THERE RIGHT. I DO NOT WISH TO OFFEND YOU BUT I THINK YOUR COMMENTS WERE UNFOUNDED.I AM GLAD YOU SAID YOU WERE NOT IRISH AS I WOULD NOT LIKE YOU TO SOUR THE WONDERFUL IRISH/SCOTTISH RELATIONS.I KNOW SCOTTISH PEOPLE DO NOT BELIEVE THE EARTH IS FLAT.
TACT IS A GREAT SKILL.

255

TAF,

USA 13/01/2007 01:34:22

Sorry Socrates, but your lowest cost +10% doesn't work, because it fails to account for the higher taxes you folks in the UK/EU are subject to.

That Microsoft product that by your calculations is ~50 pounds too much - all taxes and import duty.

Rather than looking to government to solve the problem, understand that it IS the problem. Try shrinking the government so it sucks up less of your money, and prices will come down.

You'll be happier, too.

256

babba,

dundee 13/01/2007 02:20:19

#MARTHA 220.
THANK YOU

257

Duns Scotus,

London, SE 13/01/2007 03:08:32

"Hungary: Private sector accounts for over 80 per cent of GDP"

The equivalent for Scotland was not given. I wonder why. I looked it up and it is 52 percent and falling.

Does that tell you something? Not much chance of a low tax environment in Scotland.

258

RAV,

Jobs gone, relocate to CANADA! 13/01/2007 03:10:46

If you can possibly get to Canada, esp ALBERTA do so now. We are desperately short of all types of labour, esp tradespeople or thode who will apprentice, unskilled labour in the food service & hospitality industries does not pay well enough to buy a home but the trades pay quite well. Costs of homes/rents are high, non-Canadian certificates may or may not be accepted, check carefully 1st but if you qualify it is worth the effort. Our average tradesman is 55 yrs old & too few apprentices are signing on. Police & fire depts have been recruiting from the UK for years & are still looking. Technicians of all kinds, trades of all kinds: drivers, plumbers, machinists, electricians, esp with a background in the oil patch are welcome.

259

hughie 2,

Logan City Queensland Australia 13/01/2007 03:12:06

iTS CALLED THE LOWEST COMMON DEMONITATOR, and thats the way things are in a global ecconomy. "unfortunate but true".. there could be some upside, perhaps the hungarians whao are now flooding in to Uk from hungry will go back to where the jobs are.

Failing that Do what I did and what 70 Nurses from Stroke on Trent did, Emigrate to Australia better wages conditions and far better Weather, best place in the world to bring up kids.. or retire and in Australia they learn to swim and can even play cricket, But if you coming you better hurry I hear a lot of Englishmen are trying to get here just to learn how to win a cricket., :) ;) And yes guys Seriously: We are crying out for workers all types. 1200 Workers a week moving in to Queensland Brisbane
Logan City
and the Gold Coast
lots of jobs We are Flat ut uilding new houses to keep upwith the influx as they are moving up here from Sydney and Melbourne too bye the hundereds
Plenty jobs,
And when you come bring some rain with you please.. Hughie

260

hughie 2,

Logan City Queensland Australia 13/01/2007 03:20:15

And Just a thought on the poitical side if you are ever to stop jobs going for one county to another In europe you will all have to be offered the same pay for the same work, then the empoyers would look to the better skilled workers in scotland as an advantage.
but hi your in Europe
fight for equality for alll workers and You will see I am right..
Thats why every thing you see in shops now is made in china
low wages,

261

rab, glasgow,

13/01/2007 03:37:32

Dundee.../Dont fret' the numpty executive are sending a rapid reaction force; failing that they will send in the rapid response team' failing that they will send A task force'.
With all these labour back up services we have Nowt to worry about.
MY ARSE.

262

babba,

dundee 13/01/2007 03:42:39

RAV 267
HUGHIE269
ITS NICE TO KNOW THERE ARE SOME NICE PEOPLE IN
THE WORLD.
WHO CARE AND WANT TO HELP PEOPLE.
SOME PEOPLE JUST WANT TO KICK PEOPLE WHEN THEY ARE DOWN.
WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND.

263

Thaimon,

Reality 13/01/2007 03:53:27

"He added: 'It was great job with great conditions and great wages. I am paid £8.75 an hour for unskilled labour and there are tradesmen in Dundee who are not getting that.' "

And you wonder why they've moved to to a cheaper spot to work? You've priced yourself out of the market.

264

babba,

dundee 13/01/2007 03:54:03

220 MARTHA
HOW MUCH DID YOU PAY FOR YOUR PEOPLE
MY MY MY MY MY MY MY MY MY MY MY MY MY MY MY MY

265

,

13/01/2007 06:39:43
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason: Scotsman Import, Original comment id: 282024, Article id was mapped to record!
266

Age of Reason,

at work, abroad 13/01/2007 08:12:59

Remember always - cost and value are different. If you want to earn good money, that means high cost. So you must give better value. For unskilled work, that is hard when competing with welleducated people in a low-cost country. Anyone who didn't prepare for this moment doesn't have the survival skills for the modern world

267

babba,

dundee 13/01/2007 11:45:41

275 age of reason
WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST.

268

babba,

dundee 13/01/2007 16:14:07

#220 HAS BEEN REMOVED IT JUST GOES TO SHOW THE COMMENT WERE RUDE AND RACIST.MARTHA I HOPE THIS MAKE YOU UNDERSTAND THIS IS A CIVILISED SOCIETY AND I HOPE YOU ARE ASHAMED OF YOUR SELF.

269

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, California 13/01/2007 19:40:01

It looks like free speech is dead in Scotland. But free speech never existed, not even in our great land of hypocracy the USA.

Can anyone explain to me why words like Weapons of Mass Destruction---- Kill -----Rape ----- torture --
missiles--- guns-- terrorist etc etc are acceptable in print or spoken .
But words about human body parts or words that are name calling etc etc are banned from print or the spoken word.

Kill means to terminate a life.
And that word is OK to print or say.

But golliwog is not OK
Yet Golliwog will not terminate a life.


Why was #274 comment removed and why was #220 comment removed

Does absolute FREE SPEECH exist. Me thinks not.

270

babba,

dundee 13/01/2007 19:59:28

#278
GALACTICCANNIBAL
YOU ARE CORRECT BUT FREE SPEECH DOES EXIST
HOW MUCH DID YOUR COMMENTS COST TO POST. FREE,I CAN NOT COMMENT ON#274 AS I DID NOT SEE IT BUT #220 WAS SAD PUT THE WHOLE SCOTTISH NATION DOWN TO BEING A RACE OF ALCOHOLIC
VIOLENT LAZY LOUTS AND WAS JUST BAISED ON IGNORANCE.I AM NOT SCOTTISH AND REMARKED
ON IT IT WAS AN INSULT TO THE NATION.

271

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta, California 13/01/2007 20:22:18

#279 Babba.

Whoever said or wrote "THE WHOLE SCOTTISH NATION was A RACE OF ALCOHOLIC VIOLENT LAZY LOUTS. is 100% wrong. But I defend their right to say that. (Even though i disagree with it).

I live in Southern California but I take holidays in Scotland and enjoy its beautiful countryside. The Scottish people are friendly and despite their "4 seasons each day weather" they still know how to have fun. And as a nation they are smart people.

When I climb and reach the top of Ben Nevis I am pretty exhausted , I look accros those lovely glens and reach inside for my hip flask. Then down a few swigs of pure Scottish whisky. life becomes greater.

Only problem is you have to get down from the top carefully holding on to rocks. Then you head to the PUB.
Ahh!!! Scotland what a terrific place to visit.

Galactic Canniibal......(Liam O'Brien)

272

babba,

dundee 13/01/2007 20:35:45

#279
RESPECT
NEVER A TRUER WORD SAID


 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers:
Press Complaints Commission

This website and its associated newspaper adheres to the Press Complaints Commission’s Code of Practice. If you have a complaint about editorial content which relates to inaccuracy or intrusion, then contact the Editor by clicking here.

If you remain dissatisfied with the response provided then you can contact the PCC by clicking here.