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State debt soars after borrowing a record £5,000 every second

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Published Date: 22 July 2009
THE UK faces tax hikes and spending cuts after government debt soared to its highest level since records began, borrowing £5,000 a second.
Net debt is now nearly £800 billion, with borrowing rising in one month by £13 billion – or £213 for every citizen.

Meanwhile burgeoning government spending, up 11 per cent year-on-year since June, from £44.2 billion to £49bn was met with a bigger
drop in total tax receipts of 5.7 per cent, to £35.5bn. Analysts said drastic action would be needed to get the national debt under control, which is 56.6 per cent of national income.

The leading think-tank, the Centre for Business and Economic Research (CEBR), is forecasting government spending will need to be slashed by £80bn with tax hikes of £20bn introduced to sort out UK finances.

The dire figures from the Office of National Statistics emerged as shadow foreign secretary William Hague said Britain risked losing its authority in the world because of Gordon Brown's "catastrophic" handling of the economy.

In a speech on the future of British foreign policy, Mr Hague said: "One of the damaging effects of Gordon Brown's catastrophic stewardship of Britain's finances, and of additionally reducing Britain from second to twelfth place in the international league of competitiveness according to the World Economic Forum, is the diminishing of our economic power and by extension the effectiveness of our international role."

Chancellor Alistair Darling has forecast that the black hole will hit £175bn this year but economists believe it will reach £200bn.

Liberal Democrat treasury spokesman Vince Cable called on Mr Darling to be open about the serious measures needed to get the economy back on track, as such high levels of borrowing were unsustainable.

"If the Chancellor expects to have any credibility, both with the markets and the public, he must be brutally honest about how he intends to deal with levels of borrowing," Mr Cable said.

"However, such a commitment to deal with the deficit cannot come from salami slicing key public services, but through an honest debate about what the state can and cannot afford to do."

In a further sign of the strength of the recession, income tax receipts were down, company tax receipts were down 14 per cent on last year and the take from VAT was also down by 16 per cent.

Welfare costs were also up by almost ten per cent in June to £13.3bn.

Despite the dire figures, the ONS data was actually less negative than predicted by analysts.

The pound slumped against the dollar and euro on the news emerging.

Corin Taylor, senior policy adviser at the Institute of Directors, said: "The government will have to get serious about reducing the deficit as soon as the recovery takes hold. There will be few areas of public spending that can remain entirely immune from cuts — the risks to the country's solvency are too great."

Howard Archer, at IHS Global Insight, said: "Whether or not the Chancellor does achieve his target this year, it does not alter the fact that extended, further major fiscal tightening measures will have to be introduced to get the public finances back to a sustainable state over the long term," he said.

Vicky Redwood, of Capital Economics, said: "June's UK public finances figures are a touch better than expected, but do absolutely nothing to alter the big picture that they are in a dreadful state."

But the Prime Minister's spokesman said the UK still had lower net debt than other comparable economies.

"Obviously our economy, like all economies, has been affected by the global recession.

"We got hit particularly because of the large size of our financial sector and the contribution that makes to the finances.

"But we went into this global recession with lower levels of net debt than many other countries and we will still have lower net debt than the US, Germany and the eurozone as a whole."





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 21 July 2009 11:44 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Consumer debt
 
1

Darien,

Panama 22/07/2009 00:22:02
New Labour and Westmidden incompetence.

The very oddly named 'nation' called UKofGB&NI is bust.

Scotland's independence is now essential, and will precipitate economic growth to rebuild our nation on the back of a positive trade balance, plentiful natural resources/low energy costs, return of diaspora with investment and entreprenearship, and the goodwill of the rest of the world towards Scots and all things Scottish.

Wha's like us!
2

Paddi,

22/07/2009 00:31:56
"I have done away with boom and bust" right on first point...

this money has been borrowed to try and save Brown's neck not for the good of the country, shame on labour a bunch of incompetent chimps
3

,

22/07/2009 00:41:02
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
4

hoblar,

22/07/2009 00:45:04
But the Prime Minister's spokesman said the UK still had lower net debt than other comparable economies.

"Obviously our economy, like all economies, has been affected by the global recession.

"We got hit particularly because of the large size of our financial sector and the contribution that makes to the finances.

"But we went into this global recession with lower levels of net debt than many other countries and we will still have lower net debt than the US, Germany and the eurozone as a whole."

"Lower net debt"..........it is the PUBLIC debt. the amount of burden new labour's brownonomics have put on to not only us, but our future generations.

That is the crux of the matter, not the choice debt "net debt" purported by the UK Government who have never ever admitted in the slightest that they are in any way responsible for the dire financial state of the UK and the subsequent tax debt and services squeze, job losses and the rest that us ordinary mortals are faced with.

The Chancellor of the UK has made many mickey mouse statements on economic growth, all proven to be wrong to the detriment of the public and at the very least rose tinted invention if not more properly described as the economic competence and important predictictive ability of the Exchequer; predictions being calling into question by every other body from the IMF downwards.
5

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 22/07/2009 00:49:49
These are the people who tell us that Scotland is not fiscally viable.
These are the people who tell us that we cannot manage our own revenues.

Have a nice holiday Maggie Broon - don't come back.
6

Brianwci,

22/07/2009 00:54:00
Wow, £5000 a SECOND. Thank goodness we are part of a such a successful union...

....OH....you said BORROWING £5000 a second, I thought you said MAKING £5000 a second.

Maybe it IS time we got out!!!
7

DialMforMurdoX,

22/07/2009 01:10:45
Now did they round down to the suspicious £799 billion or up?
8

Cassandra,

22/07/2009 01:15:57
A labour administration presided over this catastrophe. Scotland votes labour. Should we achieve independence, what exactly would change? Do you really think the Scots currently in the cabinet won't stand for election to a Scottish parliament? I have voted SNP for years, but greatly fear an effective one-party state should they succeed.
9

AM2,

Scotland,UK 22/07/2009 01:25:59
So UK debt is 57% of national income. Too high of course.

But could I just point out to the nationalist 'cyberactivists' who try to spin some advantage out of every possible story that Japan's is 170%, Italy's at 104%, France 67%, Greece 90%, Belgium 80%, Germany 63%, Austria 59%, USA 61%, Canada 62%, and so on. Even your beloved Norway, with about double our oil reserves, is at 52%.
10

Fitba Krazy,

22/07/2009 01:29:10
£50 each per week per head of population = UK increasing debt?

Jings, Crivvens and Help ma Boab. Wherrs ma bucket tae a bale ye oot?

11

Scotindy,

Los Angeles 22/07/2009 01:46:16
You said DRASTIC ACTION requires to take place. How right you are the Drastic action required is SCOTLANDS REFERENDUM ON INDEPENDENCE AND GET RID OF england. THAT'S THE DRASTIC ACTION REQUIRED NOTHING MORE AND NOTHING LESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12

Mr Mean,

22/07/2009 01:59:19
Disgraceful.
13

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 22/07/2009 02:37:06

Best Idea!, Wipe-out all Debts, and make the 'slate-clean'.
Our Major Money handling Policies, are now Proven to-be, Stupid, Idiotic, and of grotesque greed, and beyond the comprehension of anyone with a modicum of intelligence.
We are all to blame!, In one way or another, hence no-one owes anyone any money, let us Start from Fresh!, from lessons learnt!



14

Julian.,

edinburgh 22/07/2009 02:40:04
AM2,

Yes, we can all name countries with higher debts and many with lower...Spain 40%, Russia 7%.

But the disaster here is that national debt is rising at a higher rate than just about anywhere else. A year ago it stood at 40% and, even taking Darling's figures, it's going to be over 80% by 2012. A doubling of national debt in 4 years...not only worrying but a demonstration of complete incompetence from those who constantly droned on about the 40% golden rule and end of boom and bust.
15

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 22/07/2009 03:10:12
National debt is, by all accounts, set to hit 80% of GDP and people are, quite rightly, very concerned.

Just a thought - when Margaret Thatcher left office in 1990, national debt was only 27% of GDP.
16

donald,

glasgow 22/07/2009 05:29:31
Where's Maddox?
17

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 06:20:07
So thats where the 5000 pre election figure went to?
So the unionists were right werent they?
18

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 06:20:55
21

Post 9 and 19.
19

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 06:22:55
9

The real difference of course is the UK figure is artificial indicating a percentage lower than the true figure. Why dont you remind the good people whats left out of the calculations when it comes to working out the national debt figure?
20

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 06:23:41
19

What was unemployment?
21

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 06:25:31
Tax hikes of 20 billion on the way now that is what I call a union benefit.
22

steve 1511,

aberdeen 22/07/2009 06:26:19
brown has bankrupted the economy we now have the international status of a banana republic,corrupt politicians, all department of government failing,such is labours management of the country,FAILURE AT EVERY TURN
23

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 06:31:59
27

Its a banana monarchy.
24

ppink,

22/07/2009 07:28:07

Westminster sources said Lord Foulkes is a notorious establishment toady who slavishly defended his close friend Michael Martin, the disgraced former Speaker of the Commons.

After an undistinguished ministerial career - clouded by an episode of drunk and disorderly behaviour - he was given a peerage in 2005.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1201267/Outrage-toady-Labour-peer-accuses-forces-helping-Taliban.html?ITO=1490
25

Jimmy Le Pie,

22/07/2009 07:52:39
#30 ppink,

You'd think Lard Foolkes would know when to keep his mouth shut but no.

Does he really think ANYONE listens to a word he utters without creasing into laughter.

Drunken imbecile!!!!
26

Machelpus,

22/07/2009 08:02:34
11# Remove the blinkers please. It's not England that got us into this mess look at the Nu Liebliar govt for that run bu the Scottish mafia, and after the next election they will hopefully all be back home in Scotland and plying for seats in Holyrood.
27

Roy,

22/07/2009 08:17:54
Do you recall not so long ago the unionists were saying that an independent Scotland would not be viable because they claimed it would be in deficit?
28

Jings MacCrivvens,

22/07/2009 08:22:59
Well done to Brown for his "union" dividend!
29

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 08:23:07
34

An economy to match Albania I believe it was? I bet the UK wishes it had an economy as stable as Albanias right now eh?
30

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 08:24:06
33

We? are you planning to emigrate here then?
31

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 08:25:08
32

It was the English who gave us our present government and all previous governments for the last 300 years.
Another union benefit to Scotland.
32

BIG EYE,

Paisley 22/07/2009 08:34:08
If only Brown's Government was a do nothing government.

Everytime they do something things get worse.

The created the FSA, muzzled the Bank of England, sold the gold at the time of falling gold prices and have stumbled from disaster to disaster...at all times protesting that Scotland could not govern itself as well as Westminster.

This is a political argument Labour still plan to continue in Scotland.

The next election is going to be FUN!
33

Jimmy Le Pie,

22/07/2009 08:40:42
#39 Cedric Kessler,

Maybe Spain and Russia should apply to join The Glorious British Empire and allow Comrade Broon to manage their economies. After all he has already abolished boom and bust and saved the world economy!!!

Oil prices at around $60 - $70 a barrel is hardly a collapse!!!
34

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 08:51:02
39

We will suffer from economic downturns in or out of a union we dont benefit from economic good times however as we are tied to a regional ratio formula instead of having access and the ability to manipulate our entire fiscal income.
We can look at national debt in isolation if we were independent and have the option of dealing with it at a national level instead of a regional one.
We have a national debt and a regional income is that what you call a union benefit then?
35

Cormacksdad,

Dunfermline 22/07/2009 08:52:10
Where is the daily rant from Maddox? I feel sad and upset that I cannot read his drivel. How dare he take a day off from creating a story out of nothing. The SNP should be informed that today they are not in meltdown. Kerr should be informed that his religious beliefs are not the top story.

Ah well. This story will suffice. Scotland is not served at all by the current constitutional set up. Independence cannot come soon enough.
36

SouthernSkye,

Germany 22/07/2009 08:52:22
Labour took power, what, 11 years ago? And there was a 12bn+ surplus. Now we are looking at 200bn+ debt in the not too distant future.

As an aside, the accounts for the EU parliament have not been signed off for longer than Labour have been in power. We are governed, oft against our will, by shysters and incompetents.
37

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 08:54:29
39

And the good news is the old Russian republics under the USSR are not being dragged down by Russias internal problems are they? in fact look at how far Azerbaijan has come since losing the Russian yoke. Mind you it has a lot of oil and gas assets to help it along eh?
38

Linda,

Edinburgh 22/07/2009 08:58:07
Ironic that just before Scottish elections in 2007, Gordon Brown said an SNP government would cost every Scot £5000 a year. What an economic genius. Then in June 2007, Brown said "So I congratulate you Lord Mayor and the City of London on these remarkable achievements, an era that history will record as the beginning of a new golden age for the City of London.
And I believe the lesson we learn from the success of the City has ramifications far beyond the City itself - that we are leading because we are first in putting to work exactly that set of qualities that is needed for global success:
• openness to the world and global reach,
• pioneers of free trade and its leading defenders,
• with a deep and abiding belief in open markets,
• champions of diversity in ownership and talent, and of flexibility and adaptability to change, and
• a basic faith that from wherever it comes and from whatever background, what matters is that the talent, ingenuity and potential of people is harnessed to drive performance.
And I believe it will be said of this age, the first decades of the 21st century, that out of the greatest restructuring of the global economy, perhaps even greater than the industrial revolution, a new world order was created."
39

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 09:03:12
39

Then of course there is Kazakstan and its massive oil and gas resourses. Look at the progress they are making away from the Russian Yoke. Or are you going to tell us these countries were better off within the Russian union?
40

morris,

edinburgh 22/07/2009 09:05:14
32

Whilst I can echo much of what you say,they are the elected government of the UK of GB & NI ,whether we acknowledge them or notand were elected in England which has the lions share of seats.
I agree it would have been better if it had not been so of course.
In fact the current Blair then Broon government is the first "Labour"(well New Labour same old Tory) in history to have achieved a second term let alone a third!
All previous Labour administrations lasted for a 4 year maximum,so whilst I agree the Gordon Borrowoon and Move Over Darling are the biggest clowns in the Westmidden circus, Blair is arguably the most successful Labour leader ever,and yes I agree,that is a frightening thought!There must have been some real dumplings when a war criminal looks good.
41

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 09:11:20
39

How many countries of the old USSR are asking to rejoin? how many of them are economic basket cases? how many of them had to pay 5000 pounds per head extra in taxation? how many of them are better off?
42

Melly,

Dunblane 22/07/2009 09:21:48
We Scots should be grateful that we have the benefit of the Union. Only £5,000 a second ? Whoopee !!
43

morris,

edinburgh 22/07/2009 09:22:53
Slightly off topic but argubaly relevant:


What I find highly significant(and just as amusing) is that the Labour activists frequently "disappear" when the going gets tough,then return in numbers to argue their totally discredited case once again.What they should do is join the brighter ones who are no longer in the Labour Party !

I doubt that there can be a greater hallmark of being an idiot, than not only did you not learn from the experience,you don't even know that you are one!

By what logical thought process does one arrive at the conclusion that whilst having been as thick as mince at school,one is somehow no longer so?
The argument that they were late developers and started after they left school is a contender,but owes much of its claim to they could hardly go the other way !
For God sake Scotland get rid of this bunch of trough dwelling incompetents and never stop ridiculing the Labour Party and the total betrayal of working people that it represents.What was once a step forward is now a leap into the abyss.ITS TIME
44

Willie Mor,

22/07/2009 10:31:05
In failing to address the appalling state of the UK finances, Gordon Brown is again playing politics to the detriment of the country's economy.

Yes, Brown may think that by keeping quiet about the astronomic debt levels will fool the voters until after the next election. But the failure to identify and address proposals for resolving the debt crisis will fatally weaken the UK's international standing.

With such huge debt levels, a reduced industrial base exchanged for a failed financial sector, things do not auger well at all and a national recovery plan would be something that any competent government would address.

But no, Mr Brown's government won't even undertake a spending review this side of a General Election.

A morally bankrupt and thoroughly rotten Prime Minister well overdue to be booted out of office.
45

Willie Mor,

22/07/2009 10:38:57
Yes, and whilst we are talking about a rotten Prime Minister can anyone shed light on why the Labour party mobilized it's MP's in the Commons yesterday to vote against the SNP's request to have the writ moved to have the by election held in Glasgow North East.

Does our son of the manse feel that it would not be appropriate for the people of Glasgow NE to have an election.

Yes, the son of the manse's party voted down a request by the SNP (and the Tories and the Liberals) to have an election.

Maybe without the free-loading speaker as the MP our Mr brown thinks the people of Glasgow NE don't need a replacement.

Democracy is it Brown, or is it just more of your rotten stinking moral compass.
46

TWC,

exLabour 22/07/2009 10:49:11

53 Willie Mor
Yes, and whilst we are talking about a rotten Prime Minister can anyone shed light on why the Labour party mobilized it's MP's in the Commons yesterday to vote against the SNP's request to have the writ moved to have the by election held in Glasgow North East.
-------------------------------------------------------

Cause they are scared
47

Miss H,

22/07/2009 11:24:39
Woops.
48

Observer,,

Glasgow 22/07/2009 11:46:28
Well, it's just as well that the Govt have started printing it then, isn't it !
49

,

22/07/2009 11:47:17
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50

,

22/07/2009 11:50:26
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51

,

22/07/2009 11:50:51
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52

Alastair the First,

22/07/2009 11:56:17
Wow. Labour have really screwed up, haven't they?

I don't think we should be taking any lectures from Labour politicians about how incapable we in Scotland are. We would have to go some to beat their ineptitude.

Bunch of fecking crooks.
53

Cormacksdad,

Dunfermline 22/07/2009 12:04:28
57, 58, 59; Angus og of The Isles

Well said. I wish we had a greater number of politicians with this same clarity of thought.
54

Alan B,

22/07/2009 12:11:46
#9 AM2

Couple of things about your spinning of the uk debt levels at 57%.

Yes there are some other countries that have run far too high debt levels that is nothing to be proud about.

Germany's was largely due to the cost of reunification.

UG said but I have not checked that uk debt was at 27% when thatcher left power.

Brown has hidden uk debt. Even before the crisis the true debt level was over 100% of gdp. Remember Brown does not include pfi debt. (so if a country say france builds a school it is account against national debt and if the uk builds on pfi then it is not accounted. As such your comparison needs to genuinely show all debt and not disclude countries off balance sheet debt). Brown also has not accounted for public sector pension that he has under funded.

So with real uk debt over 100% (when brown was saying 40%) before the crisis what is the real debt levels now. So uk debt is now probably about probably close to 130%.

The other thing you neglect is that this massive deterioration has happened under labour. It is largely due to the current governments complete and utter incompetence.

It is also unlike most other countries out of control. They have spending levels build on an economy generating tax revenues that was artificial ie it was based on short term consumer spending via massive levels of consumer debt. As Eddie George said the consumer boom stoked around the turn of the century was meant to be only a short term fix. Brown has allowed it to continue in order to artificially boost the economy and we are seeing the whole thing fall like a house of cards.

As for independence the point is labour have absolutely no credibility when they utter anything about economics. Most of what they have said has turned out to be wrong and worse a pack of lies.
55

Alan B,

22/07/2009 12:18:04
33 Cedric Kessler

You may be sarcastic. But consider how much richer scotland would have been in the last 10yrs alone if we had grown by the average of the group of small western european nations that averaged 3.6%.

Consider that scotland only grew at 2.2% and has averaged less that 2% over the past 30/40yrs.

Consider also the wealth league of european nations and tell me why most of the small nations have higher gdp per capita ppp than the big ones. It is quite striking.

The decision is quite clear. Be poorer in the uk union or richer making our own decision to the benefit of our own economy. Of course you can take the unionist view that if you have a good job stuff the rest.
56

Boab1,

22/07/2009 12:35:57
57, you sum up in a nutshell why I want independence. I don't care if we end up worse off (though I don't think we will). The fact is, if it does happen, it will be because of decisions we as a nation have taken and not those dictated to us by London, even when these are not good for my country.

I only hope it happens in my lifetime.
57

Tartan Viking,

22/07/2009 12:37:19
Double standards. On the one hane the incompetents in Wastemonster tell us we must control our personal debts, whilst on the other hand they are bankrupting the whole country by saddling us with AT LEAST £13,500 of debt for every man, woman & child (though the trus figure is much higher).

Bring the election forward please - whilst there's still a chance of us surviving.
58

Laird o' Glenrothes,

22/07/2009 12:43:49
Maggie Thatcher.... she's to blame! Shutting down all the heavy industry... encouraging us to be a nation of financiers and w, sorry, b ankers!!

She's even more to blame for giving us a model for New Labour to copy.
59

David55,

22/07/2009 12:56:29
#62 - I agree! Brown has hidden uk debt. Someone has to pay the PFI consortiums. They don't building hospitals, schools, etc. for nothing. They will be making healthy profits which will be paid for by the taxpayer.

Personally, i'm now at the stage where I don't believe much that the government come out with. The debt figures are up there with the unemployment figures, in that the reported figures are laughable. Real unemployment (i.e. working age and not working) is around 10 million according to the Office of National Statistics but only those 2.4 million on unemployment benefit are counted and the rest of the people are described as economically inactive (they still cost money in benefits).

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=12


60

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 22/07/2009 13:01:15
67 Speaking of PFI the new "Wing" for the Victoria hospital in Kirkaldy is going to cost £500m folks.
61

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 22/07/2009 13:26:45
69 Sauce for the goose...
62

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 13:41:07
69

That document is a fake its no more a Scotland office release than this thread. It isnt even a good fake.
what a t*sser.
63

Nik,

Embra 22/07/2009 13:43:20
69
'A very big 'IF' Alan.

Do not forget that our 2 biggest employers and banks went bust last year also do not forget that even if all oil revenues had been allocated to Scotland the total deficit would have outweighed the total surplus by £20bn since 1980-81.'

No, it's not a very big if. Looking at other countries, the chances are we would have had government policies tailored to Scotland's economic needs rather than the South East of England's, and would probably have diversified our economy so it wouldn't just rely on oil.

Oh, and £20 billion since 1980-81 is just under £700m a year. A drop in the ocean compared to the debt we're in now.





64

Alan B,

22/07/2009 13:58:13
#Kessler

The point is
1)we have performed poorly in absolute terms with avg growth less than 2% pr yr over the past 30/40yrs within the uk union.
2)we have performed worse than the rest of the uk over most of this period over the past decade the uk grew at 2.8% while we grew at 2.2%.
3)we have performed worse than the group of small western european countries with them growing at 3.6%.
4)these small countries have outgrown the big ones including the uk.
5)As such scotlands economy is failing within the union. As such if it is broken you have to look at how to fix it.
6)Do you seriously that either the tories or labour would address scotland economic issues. Lets face it, it is not in their political interest. The tories are interested in the south. And labour cannot do anything to annoy the south if they are to get elected as such both focus on middle england and their electrate.


Why do you think the small western european countries have on the whole greater gdp per capita ppp than the bigger ones?

Consider uk monetary policy effect on scotland. Eddie George the govenor of the bank of england in charge of interest rates publically said when raising interest rates that unemployment in the north was a price worth paying to control inflation in the south.

I am not trying to blame him but that was a consequence of government policy as the BOE only has one tool at their disposal. ie brown would not take the heat out of the southern economy as it would not be politically popular their. As such we and the north of england suffered higher unemployment as a result.

Consider why the uk government refuses to publish scottish inflation! ans they know it would show over a prolonged period that sterling interest rates are inappropriate for the scottish economy and as such are artifically slowing the scottish economy down and consequently lowering living standards etc.

65

Alan B,

22/07/2009 14:03:57
#Kessler

Question: given we have performed badly in relative and absolute terms, that no unionist government is going to address our issues should we not look at the alternatives.

for instance why not have an assessment of the impact of the euro on the scottish economy. labour and libs support it as do the snp but the unionist parties will not do it despite being far better than sterling if you consider monetary policy, as it is not politically supported in england.


The unionist argument to address scotland economic failures under both labour and the tories is what?

Labour are a joke economically they slag far richer small countries off than both scotland and the uk. If you take their arguement to it logical conclusion it is better to be poor.
66

Alan B,

22/07/2009 14:07:16
#Kessler

Consider the order of wealth in countries ie gdp per capita ppp and see where the big european countries are and where the small ones are placed.

1 Qatar 85,868
2 Luxembourg 82,306
3 Norway 53,451
4 Singapore 51,142
5 Brunei 50,117
6 United States 46,859
— Hong Kong 43,811
7 Switzerland 42,783
8 Ireland 42,539
9 Netherlands 40,431
10 Iceland 40,025
11 Kuwait 39,850
12 Austria 39,634
13 Canada 39,183
14 United Arab Emirates 38,830
15 Australia 37,299
16 Denmark 37,266
17 Sweden 37,245
18 United Kingdom 36,523
19 Belgium 36,235
20 Finland 36,217
21 Germany 35,442
22 Bahrain 34,605
23 France 34,208
24 Japan 34,100
25 China, Republic of (Taiwan) 30,881
26 Spain 30,621
27 Italy 30,581

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Why do think scotland is uniquely incapable of performing like others? Why are we destined for failure?
67

Alan B,

22/07/2009 14:16:05
#Kessler

I just reread your post and you misunderstand the economic sitution.

If we had grown at say 3.6% per yr we would have generated far more wealth and hence tax revenues.

Your fiscal revenues are a result of your economic performance (and tax rates). As such your post is the wrong way round.

The question would growth be higher.

As i pointed out above simply having a monetary policy set for scotland needs would have increased growth. Our growth has been artificially constrained over the past 30yrs by having interest rates set to control southern inflation. Personally i would go for the euro as it is too me the best of the 3 main options available.

Having corporation tax competive with ireland over the past 20yrs would have infinitely increased growth. That was overwhelmingly the reason they were growing at silly levels (7% at one point i believe). (although they like the uk over did the property boom in the last decade).
As a result they came from one of the poorest economies in western europe to one of the richest.
68

Scotfree,

Erskine 22/07/2009 14:39:07
The Scotsman really needs to catch up with the rest of Scotland and the world and start doing proper reporting and investigation. And yes, there are other sources of stories apart from the labour party briefings. You might even want to read the other papers if you want to improve on yesterdays news.
A notable omission from your story is that although Scotland is set to suffer the more severe and prolonged downturn it has increased its tax receipts to the tune of 4 Billion! According to the Daily Mail yesterday(sic)the drops in tax take were partly offset by an extra £900million in duty from high oil and gas prices, and £2.7billion extra in capital gains tax.
Gordon Brown has predicted a doubling of the world economy in this decade, however the depression in Scotland is likely to last that long with no improvement for the average Scot. All this, despite, having, enen now, the world’s third highest per capita income. Again, Scotland wealth is to be squandered on re-financing the City of London Casino, London Olympic Games, London World Cup, London Airports, London Motorways, London Communications, Royal Flights and so on.
69

Nik,

Embra 22/07/2009 14:46:42
78

So you support a fully intergrated EU then?
70

Tartan Viking,

22/07/2009 14:50:00
#79. Roofass

The debt is not £68 billion you cloth eared idiot.

It is at least £800 BILLION at least. Read the article

This is at least £13,500 for EVERY person in the UK.

Thanks to your incompetent bunch in the Lying party

71

,

22/07/2009 15:14:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
72

Cormacksdad,

Dunfermline 22/07/2009 15:58:34
Prospect Magazine, August 2009. From a piece entitled "Is Britain Bust?"

The cause of all this recent borrowing is not the banking crises itself. The bonds required to fund the banks taken into state administration, a mere £37bn, were issued last autumn.........the headache comes from spending by government departments (without accompanying tax rises) over the last nine years and is to be traced in the policies and misfortune of a single man, Prime Minister Gordon Brown.

Says it all really!
73

hoblar,

22/07/2009 16:35:19
"If the UK is "bust", so is Scotland, and "independence" would make no difference at all.

Apart from incurring hefty separation, transition and duplication costs, rendering us isolated and defenceless, and so on."

Utter rot and bawbaggery.

Defenceless?

Why, because we won't have nukes?

Because our army will be proportional to our population?

Scotland is a PARTNER in the union, we won't be paying 'seperation costs' any more than England except, again, proportional to population, although we will probably own Harley Street.

You can keep Harley Street.

The point is that no matter what utter guff you dream will happen in the next ten years, the uk constitution (unwritten) will be entirely different than what the likes of you prays for and invents.

Scotland is ahead of the game politically and that is the problem for the uk, a place that will cease to exist when scotland decides that being a country that makes autonomous decisions and has her own place in the world is the way forward.
You also lie in some dreamland where whatever state the bumbling coco the clown uk politicians leaves the UK in is somehow going to be exactly the same in an Independent Scotland.....accountability is lacking in the uk, a place where we now discover that the great Chancellor Gordon brown wasn't so good after all, the aftermath of THAT affects Scotland.

Scotland will be an Independent country, and the circumstances have INCREASED GREATLY that would make that a likely prospect in comparison to ten years ago....yet the few desperate union loving clowns that remain on here think that there has been no political changes in Scotland, that the uk is good at economics, that the MP's in Westminster are trusted rather than being see clearly by the public as self serving clowns........

It will all happen without your permission, feel free to engage in a load of guff though if it makes you feel good, but you are merely fiddling while watching your Rome burn like the ot
74

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 16:40:17
78

USSR.
75

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 16:43:13
79

Who is this us youre keep referring to your not us I doubt you qualify as an us with anybody.
76

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 16:46:12
78

The USSR was a fine example of a very large union while the UK is an example of a small union so do you still hold to the notion bigger is best?
77

Alan B,

22/07/2009 17:19:04
#78 Group Captain Lionel Mandrake

Pretty poor reply even for you.

The point is scotland is doing poorly within the union. None of the unionist parties are willing to do anything about it. As such devolving economic powers or independence would give scotland a chance to resolve the issues.

The EU union means that the uk union is largely obsolete. You have a single market. And a common currency.

I have simply pointed out within europe the small countries have done better. That is a fact and we should be asking why rather than the unionist position of putting their heads in the sand and going into denial mode.

I have previously outlined potential reasons for that.

Also it is interesting the germany the biggest and best performing of the big eu countries until reunification was a federal county and not run on the ultra centralised models of france or the uk.

Australia which has done well is also has a federal devolved model. For instance different parts of australia can have different immigration rules.

The US is also very decentralised and the individual states have far more powers than the scottish parliament.

I do think the uk could be reformed to work. As i do not think size is the core problem. But the fact is it will not and is not willing to reform. Am economically and politically decentralised model could work.

But the question you have to ask is why have both the tories and labour allowed the north to pay the price for controlling southern inflation. It would be easy enough to dampen demand in the south and have interest rates set for the whole country.

What we see in the uk is policies designed for the south of the uk.

An good example in thatchers day was miras. A policy that subsides mortages interest tax relieve. With home ownership more in the south it was a subsidy for the south. But far worse it was a subsidy for credit while they were using interest rates to control the amount of credit in the economy. As such it hi
78

Alan B,

22/07/2009 17:21:21
cont.. As such it hit manufacturing hard as it raised interest rates hitting the cost of investment and raised the value of the pound hitting exports, while subsiding southern house buying. The southern service based economy was pretty immune from the effects.
79

Alan B,

22/07/2009 17:32:38
#Group Captain Lionel Mandrake

"Alan B thinks small countries are better"

What I said was the smaller western european countries have performed better than the larger ones. And given evidence to should that is true.

Firstly that shows scotland has nothing to fear due to its size.

Why do you think small european countries ahve outperformed their bigger neighbours?

Is it maybe because france and the uk are run for Paris and London respectively and less thought is given to the regions?

Why did the german decentralised model do better until reunification than the other 2?

If we have access to the single market of 400/500 million people does that not remove the disadvantage of a small country having access to a large market that is need for trade? Was that not the reason the uk joined?

Given our economic failings why have we had no independent economic assessment of the euro for scotland particularly given the problems the sterling zone gives to scotland? (i agree it would be better for the whole uk to join but not for scotland to wait as england does not want to join for political reasons).



80

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 17:35:49
88 89

Parrots are not indiginous to Scotland if you lived here you would have noticed that by now.
81

Phil C,

22/07/2009 18:28:16
#78 Group Captain Lionel Erseface - "Alan B thinks small countries are better. But he has no idea why.
Two word: "United" and "States"."

What better example of why not to group together than the United States; a hot-bed of wasteful, warmongering, selfish, inward-looking, shallow, dumb-assed, money mad, hollow consumerist, legal abusive, immoral, bible bashing, hypocritic................

But, if I were to generalise, most American individuals are wonderful, thoughtful and generous, if a bit in lala land.
82

Tartan Viking,

22/07/2009 18:29:00
#94. The penny is most definately dropping and that is why people in Scotland will be voting SNP so that they can take back control from the clowns you support in Wastemonster before we all get sucked into the black hole of incompetence. Idiot.
83

Ronald Penman,

Glasgow 22/07/2009 18:52:34
Er......Prudence, are yer there ? Hahahahhahahaha

Wipeout on the way for the NEW LABOUR scum methinks......
84

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 19:07:57
98

And was it the highlight of you life so far?
85

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 19:13:04
97

And yet if the UK government were to adopt the Euro tommorrow you would be on here pretending that it is a massive boon to Scotland and a big union benefit simply because youre full of sh*t.
86

The Saltire,

22/07/2009 19:29:17
97

"Why do you think small european countries ahve outperformed their bigger neighbours?"

"Because they have had different economic histories."

"Nothing to do with their size."

And you can turn this personal opinion into fact can you?
87

Phil C,

22/07/2009 19:45:31
#92 Alan B

You are consistently, like many others, a positive force for Scotland. Well researched, balanced, accurate and to the point.

Keep talking ther talk and we'll soon walk the walk.
88

donald,

glasgow 23/07/2009 05:03:35
SCOTLAND IS NOT ALLOWED BOOMS.

Whaur's yer cyberbritnats noo?

 

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