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'Economic flaws' in SNP opposition to nuclear power

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Published Date: 19 April 2009
JUST as Gordon Brown was preparing to play host to his old adversary Alex Salmond at the most high-powered dinner party North Queensferry will have witnessed, a long-running disagreement between their respective parties was moving up a gear, writes Rosemary Gallagher.
Last Wednesday night, Brown invited Salmond and other Scottish political heavyweights to his Fife home for a soirée with a serious undertone. They came together round the table to share views on how the Scottish economy could be given the boost it ba
dly needs to lead it out of recession.

However, the amicable gathering was overshadowed by the ongoing disagreement between the SNP and the UK Government on whether nuclear power has a role to play in guaranteeing the country's energy supply.

The SNP administration's opposition to building any new nuclear power plants in Scotland is one of its key policies. It wants to focus its attention on helping develop the country's renewable energy industry. In the other corner, the UK Government last Wednesday released a list of 11 sites in England and Wales where nuclear powers stations could be built. They will stretch from Braystones in Cumbria to Hinkley Point in Somerset to Wylfa in North Wales. On Thursday, Energy Secretary Ed Miliband travelled north of the Border to tell Salmond that he is putting jobs and investment under threat in Scotland by his refusal to budge on his long-standing anti-nuclear power policy.

However, Salmond is holding firm. A spokesman says: "The view of the Scottish Government and indeed Scotland's Parliament as a whole on nuclear is absolutely clear. Scotland simply doesn't want or need dangerous and unnecessary new nuclear power stations, with soaring decommissioning costs and the unresolved problem of storage of radioactive waste that burdens future generations for thousands of years."

So can Scotland meet its power needs without new nuclear plants and continue to be a net exporter of energy? And will Scotland's economy be battered further by an absence of investment in nuclear?

The UK Government is adamant there is a pressing need to explore all the options available to close a looming power "generation gap" because many existing nuclear and coal-fired stations are set to shut down. Meanwhile, the Scottish Government says it is on target to meet its target of the country generating 50% of its electricity from renewable sources by 2020.

The SNP administration has ruled out any new nuclear power stations in Scotland after the closure of the country's two existing plants at Hunterston and Torness. It has argued the case of renewables, saying that Scotland has around a quarter of Europe's wave and tidal energy potential as well as big opportunities in wind power. It also recently announced plans to create 16,000 green energy-related jobs in Scotland over the next decade.

Most commentators, even trade body Scottish Renewables, believe that green energy must be part of a wider portfolio of power sources. In an interview with Scotland on Sunday, Jason Ormiston, chief executive of Scottish Renewables, said: "The vision we have is of a number of generating technologies operating together where the weaknesses of each are balanced by the strengths of others. I like to think of it as a football team, where the whole is better than the sum of the parts."

The widely held view, outside the Scottish Government, is that renewables cannot meet Scotland's energy needs in isolation and this issue must be addressed now. McKinnon & Clarke, an energy consultancy, has called for the SNP to consider nuclear power as part of the country's energy mix.

David Hunter, analyst for McKinnon & Clarke, says: "In an ideal world, renewable energy would form the basis for Scotland's energy needs but the reality is it can only deliver a portion of the country's requirements and even at that, it is unpredictable."

Hunter warns that Scotland's coal-fired and nuclear power stations are due to be decommissioned without a clear strategy for replacing them. Cockenzie coal-fired station closes in 2015; Hunterston nuclear plant in 2016; Longannet coal-fired station in 2020; Torness nuclear reactor in 2023 and Peterhead gas-fired station two years later.

With coal producing 32.7% of Scotland's electricity, nuclear 26.4% and renewables, including hydro, only 13%, there is a long way to go before the Scottish Government hits its target of 50% of the country's electricity coming from renewable sources by 2020.

Hunter says: "The reality is that building nuclear power stations is good for jobs. Building one new station can create up to 9,000 jobs.

"Building nuclear power stations would have a number of economic benefits for Scotland. It shouldn't be an issue of either nuclear or renewables. There should be a combination of both," he says.

Technically, it is dangerous to rely on renewables. "Wind and tidal energy sources are subject to factors outwith anyone's control and as a result the country needs a reliable fallback option," says Hunter.

He says the option of extending the life of existing nuclear power plants is limited as they become less efficient with age. Some older plants in the UK have experienced "outages" lasting up to a year.

It is not just the economy that the SNP should be considering when it comes to its views on nuclear, but also the impact on climate change. Grant Hodges, partner at PricewaterhouseCoopers, says all forms of energy, such as nuclear, tidal and wave and wind power, must be adopted to reduce Scotland's carbon footprint. According to Hodges it would be hypocritical for Scotland to refuse to build nuclear plants and then import nuclear power generated in England and overseas to meet its power needs.





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1

TheUnionisBritish,

19/04/2009 00:35:15
I fail to see why the Nuclear Power stations cannot be built within the M25 area if Mr Milliband want these. The Scots can invest in these remewals, hydro etc and they can invest in nuclear. What is his problem? What is going to happen to the waste? I have never liked the idea of all the radioactive waste and the cost of disposing of it.
2

Los Angeles,

19/04/2009 00:40:45
According to Hodges it would be hypocritical for Scotland to refuse to build nuclear plants and then import nuclear power generated in England and overseas to meet its power needs." (SoS)

This week it's the turn of a guy called ... erm, where's my notes ... erm, called Hodge Podge," to denounce the Scottish Parliament's stand against nuclear power.

So, what his take on Scotland's perversity?

"Unless they accept what we in Westminster think good for Scotland, Scotland is doomed ... again."




3

For Scotlands Future,

Vote For The SNP 19/04/2009 01:21:19
These Nuclear Power stations are safe and harmless aren't they?? So what is the problem of building them in England??

If there is such an economic benefit to building these things in Scotland, then why aren't all the anti-Scottish English MP's up in arms about the mere thought they could be built in Scotland??

Why are English MP's wanting to remove the Scottish Governments right to block them being built in Scotland??

Why is Calman going to recommend that powers, such a planning permission, should be removed from Holyrood, "in the interests of National Security".
4

Colin, Glasgow,

19/04/2009 02:51:10
#3 The problem is obvious if you can see beyond your parochial obsession with national boundaries. Energy policy is a UK matter, not a devolved matter:

If we don't replace nuclear with nuclear then we have to squander renewables on replacing nuclear powerstations instead of displacing fossil fuel.

They _are_ planning to build new nuclear plant at the existing sites in england and wales. The same should be done here when the time comes.

It is a heck of a lot less harmful to health than building more coal plant.
5

greenhill,

19/04/2009 10:30:16
RE For Scotlands Future,Vote For The SNP 19/04/2009 01:21:19

What a sad idiot you are.You say: "These Nuclear Power stations are safe and harmless aren't they?? So what is the problem of building them in England??"

Do you reckon the double question marks actually add anything to your point? One is enough unless you are a fool which you obviously are because if you actually read the story you would have come across this:
.......................................
"In the other corner, the UK Government last Wednesday released a list of 11 sites in England and Wales where nuclear powers stations could be built. They will stretch from Braystones in Cumbria to Hinkley Point in Somerset to Wylfa in North Wales."
......................................

You abject dullhead.



6

The Tin Man,

19/04/2009 10:40:51
We haven't got what it takes.

We'll allow Torness and Hunterston to close, send the jobs and talent south, and import base-load electricity partly generated at new English and Welsh nuclear plants.
7

Los Angeles,

19/04/2009 10:44:20

You abject dullhead. (Greensleeves)

This week oi is mainly stickin' nooclir power on the Scotch. Righ'. Back inside me hutch.



8

Los Angeles,

19/04/2009 10:45:55
We'll allow Torness and Hunterston to close, send the jobs and talent south, (Tin Foil)

Aaaargh! We are chasing away talent! How short sighted can we be?

Are you trying to prove a link between blindness and plutonium leaks?


9

The Tin Man,

19/04/2009 10:48:54
#9 Los

I am sure that you would agree that Holyrood can be a remarkably short-sighted, populist instutution.
10

livilion,

livingston 19/04/2009 12:19:18
Howsabout this for an economic flaw?

The first generation of nuclear stations coming off-stream have so far cost upwards of £75bn to dismantle, and we have still to get to the really dirty job of removing the nuclear reactor cores themselves. It's anyones guess how much that's going to add to the bill, oh and did I forget to mention that we are also going to have to pay to guard that radioactive scrap for thousands of years?
Not bad for a working life of a few decades.

At Windscale for example it will be another 30 years before they even attempt to remove it and on the Forth at Rosyth there's even a fleet of left-over rusting cold war nuclear subs still too hot to handle.

Consider also: that by the time these proposed new nuclear stations could be contributing to the national grid in 20-25 years time, Gordon Brown, Rosemary Gallagher and now former-CND fellow travellers will in all likelyhood be long retired and possibly even creating future fossil fuel themselves.
They will not have to live with the economic and environmental consequences of their proposals, but our grandchildren will.
11

livilion,

livingston 19/04/2009 12:25:38
#9 Los Angeles

Talent indeed! what is the going rate for a guard on a nuclear waste dump and do they get paid in French euros, S.A. rands or Canadian dollars?
12

livilion,

livingston 19/04/2009 12:51:46
#7 The Tin Man

For much of last year Scotland was a nett exporter of electricity even with no nuclear electricity being generated for the grid, due to issues with Hunterston B and Torness in common with more than half of the UK's nuclear generation capacity, which was either off-line completely or only running at 60% capacity.
Bearing in mind that nuclear stations can only be used for base load as they only operate economicaly at full power.

Do you/they have a plan for after the exhaustion of uranium sources, projected to be in about 80 years time, always supposing that well before then we are not already being held to ransom by producer nations?

btw Any word yet on Darling's promised hydrogen fuel competition he spiked BP's Peterhead hydrogen power station for at this time in 2007?
13

The Tin Man,

19/04/2009 13:46:15
#13

No idea where you get your 2008 figures from, however, the basics can be read here:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Environment/seso/Q/TID/18

In 2007, 17% of electricity generated in Scotland was exported. In 2007, 26% of electricity generated in Scotland came for nuclear plants.

Due to the absence of any power generation, whatsoever, from any number of windturbines on a calm day, there has to be sufficient thermal and hydro power generation to cover our entire demand, at any given time.

The drive for subsidised renewable power is driven by the need to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, with coal-fired stations being the single most significant culprit.

As the article states: ". Cockenzie coal-fired station closes in 2015; Hunterston nuclear plant in 2016; Longannet coal-fired station in 2020; Torness nuclear reactor in 2023 and Peterhead gas-fired station two years later."

What's your realistic plan? We have approximately seven years before Scotland becomes a net importer of power, and significantly reliant on England and Wales for electricity on calm days.

Bear in mind that 'carbon capture' and wave / tidal generation are currently subjects of research, and not anywhere near being commercially available (a bit like saying that we will base our energy policy on nuclear power, but saying it in 1940).

Alternately, our energy policy could be based on the assumption that anything other than wind turbines is too difficult, and we'll hope someone else does something about it for us. I believe it works for the Danes, who rely on external generation, and pay the highest bills in Europe.
14

The Tin Man,

19/04/2009 14:00:07
I withdraw my comment about Danish generation, but you can read about their experience here:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldselect/ldeconaf/195/19517.htm
15

The Tin Man,

19/04/2009 14:03:12
...Actually you can say that teh Danes have among he highest electricity prices in Europe, and rely on external generation.... So I withdraw my withdrawal..
16

The Tin Man,

19/04/2009 14:08:10
Then, of course, there is the Swedish experience: "according to a poll of January 2008, as many as 48% of the Swedes are in favour of building new nuclear reactors, 39% are opposed and 13% are undecided. This is in contrast to the stance of the political parties in Sweden, the only one in favour of building new reactors is the 7.5% Liberal party."
17

The Tin Man,

19/04/2009 14:14:15
livlion

"The first generation of nuclear stations coming off-stream have so far cost upwards of £75bn to dismantle"

I believe you ment "the current estimate by the United Kingdom's Nuclear Decommissioning Authority is that it will cost at least £70 billion to decommission the existing United Kingdom nuclear sites"
18

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 19/04/2009 14:21:38
Livilion - good post. Nuclear power is the selfish option. 20-25 years of electricity and leaving a 10,000 year clean-up bill for our dscendents.

Tin Man - some of those power stations lifespans you give are likely to be extended. If what you said was true the gap will already be impossible to bridge. Nuclear stations will take 12-15 years to get approval and build.

You are putting all the emphasis on wind in your discussion on alternatives, but there is significant hydro power, with further admittedly smaller scale projects being developed all the time. There are also biomass plants already in production with more being developed. Wave and tide maybe at an earlier stage, but by harnessing some of the cutting edge energy companies already here they will begin to produce much more quickly than you expect.

However there is something we can all do - cut down on consumption. Last year, partly spurred on by fuel prices I cut my consumption of electricity by a third, without much impact on our lifestyle. We have so far managed to keep it down. Many more people could do the same.
19

The Tin Man,

19/04/2009 14:54:32
#19 Nebulous

I entirely agree that by far the most sensible direction is reducing consumption. Unfortunately, there appears to be almost no political will to persue that course. In fact, my local council's policies prevent me from installing double glazing. Incentives to install insulation are non-existant to anyone under 65.
20

greenhill,

19/04/2009 15:04:40
RElivilion,livingston 19/04/2009 12:51:46
Do you/they have a plan for after the exhaustion of uranium sources, projected to be in about 80 years time, always supposing that well before then we are not already being held to ransom by producer nations?
...................................................

What a massive lie.Here are the facts on the subject of supplies of uranium : right now we have around 80 years of "known supply" .

You have dishonestly interpreted that as "total supply". The fact is that there is just so much of the stuff that it is unecenomic to explore for more right now because of the over supply.

However Uranium can also be extracted from sea water so we have no problems with supply.

We could also build fast breeder reactors. Then we could use thorium of which there is 3 to 4 times as much. So you are puting forward a big lie.

21

greenhill,

19/04/2009 15:09:36
RElivilion,livingston 19/04/2009 12:51:46 :Consider also: that by the time these proposed new nuclear stations could be contributing to the national grid in 20-25 years time,
....................................................

Another lie from livion liar we could have new nuclear by 2017.You are a disgrace.
22

greenhill,

19/04/2009 15:21:59
RENebulous,Aberdeen 19/04/2009 14:21:38
Livilion - good post. Nuclear power is the selfish option. 20-25 years of electricity and leaving a 10,000 year clean-up bill for our dscendents.
...............................................

No it was not a good post.You are just another porky merchant.

Because waste is very radioactive it has a short half-life and in 50 years is out of harm's way and within a couple of hundred years is less radioactive than when it was in the ground. However you would not want the truth get in the way of scare mongering lies.
23

KampungHighlander,

Jakarta 19/04/2009 16:59:36
"According to Hodges it would be hypocritical for Scotland to refuse to build nuclear plants and then import nuclear power generated in England and overseas to meet its power needs."

It is also hypocritical for the UK Government to continue on insisting that Scotland accept New Nuclear Plants when Scotland already generates more than enough to meet its needs (17% exported in 2007).

Future needs could easily be met by Clean Coal which Scotland has in abundance rather than relying on the more expensive and dangerous option of Nuclear.

Energy technology is going through a bit of a revolution and by the time that the first nuclear plant is set to close (2016) there will be many more options available.
24

John (Again),

Bury St Edmunds 19/04/2009 17:32:22
Tomorrow Gordon Brown will reveal his "Gosplan" for state intervention in industry, ostensibly to help it to recover from the financial crisis lack of regulation of the banking sector produced.

In England we are not so fortunate as Scotland as the public will have no say in infrastructure decisions. Instead of the public inquiry system, which had the temerity of holding up diabolical plans like nuclear power, new runways and motorways for a few years, we will have to bow to the decision of a planning commission quango, comprising government nominees able to push the "Gosplan" through. Subsequent inquiries will then be unable to question the viability of the proposals, but only the local impacts.

In the case of nuclear power, whether it will happen at all in England and Wales is doubtful. Around half of the French nukes are due for replacement in the next ten years, while the French nuclear builder is having to absorb Euro 3 billion of the losses in its Finnish venture. The need for twenty or so EPRs in France will require an investment of Euro 100 billion and as the lights dim in France as the old plants close, Nicholas Sarkozy will be hard put to find Euro 20 billion for England's EPRs.

What irks Gordon Brown is his lack of control over Scottish energy planning. Also EdF bought access to 8 British Energy sites, two of which it cannot use, so perhaps it is asking for some of its money back from the £4 billion that went to Gordon Brown?
25

The Tin Man,

19/04/2009 17:39:00
#24 Bulie Kampung

"Clean coal" :-)

Clean coal technology has already been installed, at huge cost, at our coal-burning stations. They are still the singular main source of Scottish greenhouse emmissions.
26

greenhill,

19/04/2009 17:42:57
RE KampungHighlander,Jakarta 19/04/2009 16:59:36
It is also hypocritical for the UK Government to continue on insisting that Scotland accept New Nuclear Plants when Scotland already generates more than enough to meet its needs (17% exported in 2007).
................................................

Did you read the article? You moron. Let me remind you:

"Scotland's coal-fired and nuclear power stations are due to be decommissioned without a clear strategy for replacing them. Cockenzie coal-fired station closes in 2015; Hunterston nuclear plant in 2016; Longannet coal-fired station in 2020; Torness nuclear reactor in 2023 and Peterhead gas-fired station two years later."

What part of that did you not understand?

Your stupidity is unforgivable. Shame on you.
27

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 19/04/2009 17:44:46
Greenhill - I think you have misunderstood something somewhere. Try wikipedia under "nuclear power"
It says - "After 10,000 years of radioactive decay, according to United States Environmental Protection Agency standards, the spent nuclear fuel will no longer pose a threat to public health and safety."

It will need storing and securing for that length of time - though of course the risks from it reduce considerably before then.

28

greenhill,

19/04/2009 17:52:14
RE Nebulous,Aberdeen 19/04/2009 17:44:46 :"Try Wikipedia"

That explains everything .Now I understand. Wikipedia: the new Delphic Oracle. Do not trust the Pythia.

I despair.

29

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 19/04/2009 18:04:07
Greenhill - I'm trying hard to be civil here, particularly given the derogatory comments you have passed about myself and others. Wikipedia can often give a good starting point and is generally well above the level of debate you have offered so far.

Let me try again. Do you have any reasonable reference source that will back your claim that waste is "out of harm's way within 50 years and within a couple of hundred years is less radioactive than when it was in the ground?"

While you are at it, what do you mean by 'it'?
30

greenhill,

19/04/2009 19:40:36
Natural Uranium takes up to 10,000 years to fully decay into lead.So even without Nuclear power the stuff still exists."Waste" goes back to it's original state quite quickly and continues to decay as before.

However it is extra potent and very dangerous within the previously mentioned timescales.After that normal nature resumes.It can be buried and is not the big deal that is made out by the fear merchants.

On the other hand fossil fuel power radiation cannot be controlled and goes into the atmosphere it kills far more people than nuclear .

If you took a Geiger counter around the vicinity of a conventional power station you would find far more radiation because conventional power spews out up to 200 times more radiation than nuclear. However the "green" lobby is not as paranoid about conventional power so do not demand the same stringent scrutiny or whip up as much fear.
31

livilion,

livingston 19/04/2009 20:33:21
#23 greenhill,

>>Because waste is very radioactive it has a short half-life and in 50 years is out of harm's way and within a couple of hundred years is less radioactive than when it was in the ground<<

So if this very radioactive waste is such a non-issue when will they be going in to clean up the 1956 Windscale 'overheating incident', a couple of hundred years?

Presumably younger former Pripyat residents will be returning to their old homes in about 2036 and their kids conducting Disney style tours of their Chernobyl theme park, expounding the health giving properties of exposure to nuclear radiation(rebranded 'magic moonbeams' for the tourists)?


32

Nebulous,

Aberdeen 19/04/2009 20:38:35
Thank you. I am opposed to nuclear power, as I am sure you have noticed, but I still prefer to debate the facts rather than each other.

Uranium is naturally occurring and is relatively weakly radioactive, with a half-life much longer than 10,000 years - nevermind the time it takes to cease being radioactive.

Unfortunately producing nuclear power produces a lot of waste which is much more radioactive and consequently dangerous than Uranium. Some of this decays quite quickly, your figure of 40-50 years is not one I would argue with for a lot of the material. During this time it also gives off a lot of heat and has to be handled carefully. Beyond that time there are other isotopes that are still much more dangerous than Uranium, that will remain a risk for a considerable period of time, certainly thousands of years, with the 10,000 years I quoted earlier being a commonly agreed figure. That long-term storage requirement is a huge issue.

Coal contains small amounts of radioactive material and burning such huge quantities of it condenses that. It's release does pose some concerns. That is a whole other argument though!
33

livilion,

livingston 19/04/2009 20:50:48
#31 greenhill,
Gasification of hydrocarbons:
http://www.hydrogenenergy.com/43.html

Simply, split coal, oil, peat, natural gas(methane) or oil shale into carbon and hydrogen, either underground or at the surface, liquidise the carbon and return it underground where it quickly turns to inert rock(limescale) on contact with water, or into oil and gas seams to extend their production, use the hydrogen in fuel cells for transportation or domestic heat and light, or burn it directly in power stations such as BP proposed for Peterhead or the 'clean coal/carbon capture' stations invisaged for Longannet and Cockenzie utilising Clydebuilt ultra high pressure steam boilers.

Only steam comes out the chimney And no radiation.
34

livilion,

livingston 19/04/2009 21:37:52
#23 greenhill
ALSO...
>>within a couple of hundred years is less radioactive than when it was in the ground. However you would not want the truth get in the way of scare mongering lies.<<



The US Environment Protection Agency (EPA) has found that radon is responsible for over 20,000 deaths per year in the United States. Health Canada estimates that over 1,600 Canadians die each year from exposure to radon in their homes. (Source: Natural Resources Canada) the natives of the Granite City are more than interested in these stats too.

That safe?...
and you would deliberately introduce more into the environment. Each to their own I suppose.
I take it from your apparent cornucopia of wisdom I need not here dilate upon the joys of Radon gas for you.


#22
7 years from enquiry to completion for a privately financed nuclear project, and 5th generation too?
Torness took 8 years just to build a 20 year old design, the public enquiry alone began in 1974 and itself took 6 years.

Just a thought, how comfortable would you be to live by a nuclear power station built by the lowest tender and run solely for the benefit of it's company shareholders?
35

KampungHighlander,

20/04/2009 05:34:57
#27 Dungheap

"Did you read the article? You moron. Let me remind you:"

Did you bother to read the entire post? You would see that I advocate the use of Clean Coal to replace the plants that are closing.

Your resort to childish insults(#6 "What a sad idiot you are.") and blatant lies ("Because waste is very radioactive it has a short half-life and in 50 years is out of harm's way ") shows the absolute poverty of your arguments.

# Tin Man

"Clean coal technology has already been installed, at huge cost, at our coal-burning stations. They are still the singular main source of Scottish greenhouse emmissions."

The Clean Coal Technology you refer too was designed in the 70's to strip out the components causing acid rain. The Clean Coal technology I refer to is the modern kind that strips out the C02 for sequestration. There is no commercial plant in the World that has implemented it, even though the technology has already been developed to the point that it can be deployed.

Scotland would be an ideal place to implement this technology as the sequestered CO2 could be pumped into our depleting oil fields to enhance their production.

Would it not be better to develope this technology and all the well paid engineering jobs that go without rather than relying on impoted Nuclear Technology that still does not address the 2 fundamental problems with Nuclear, namely waste storage and high decommissioning costs.

You may well ask yourself why if Nuclear is so viable has decommissioning fallen on the taxpayer and not on the utilities that operated these plants.

The answer is that without the public purse picking up the clean up costs that Nuclear is not a financially viable option.
36

The Tin Man,

20/04/2009 09:21:59
#36 Kampung

The truth be told, none of the choices are financially viable, but that is not the point of persuing them. In the event of any actual implimentation of carbon capture, presumably the taxpayer would shoulder the burden of north sea platform decomisioning costs (not surprising that BP was keen to get in on the Peterhead station research).
37

Colin, Glasgow,

20/04/2009 16:03:26
Nebulous #33 “Beyond that time there are other isotopes that are still much more dangerous than Uranium, that will remain a risk for a considerable period of time, certainly thousands of years, with the 10,000 years I quoted earlier being a commonly agreed figure. That long-term storage requirement is a huge issue.”

It is really the other way around. The reason that very long-term sequestration is being entertained is because it is relatively feasible to do it. The quantities of waste are small, so it is quite possible to go to extraordinary lengths to keep it out of the biosphere. Nobody would consider going to these lengths for standard toxic waste, let alone fossil fuel residue, even though it is more harmful as a result.

Consider the following (greenhill especially):

http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~blc/book/chapter11.html

After about 600 years vitrified nuclear waste is about as toxic as copper. You would need to ingest about an ounce of this glass waste for it to have a reasonable chance of killing you.

Do we go to these extraordinary lengths to render copper safe? No. In fact we use it make water pipes.

Nor do we make the effort with any number of more hazardous, permanently toxic, substances. In fact we scatter them across our crops as insecticides.

We only consider this extraordinary disposal mechanism for nuclear waste because the quantities are manageable and it is, relatively speaking, easy to achieve.

In fact the proposed design for the UK repository aims for much better than 10,000 years of safe storage. It aims to make the site a hundred times less harmful than natural background radiation at the surface, for 1 million years. It will be absurdly over-engineered, yet it is likely to add only a few tenths of a penny per kWh to the cost of nuclear electricity generation.
38

livilion,

livingston 20/04/2009 21:45:56
#37 The Tin Man

Revenue from an additional 20+ years of Enhanced Oil Recovery(EOR),think of it being like sticking a 'Sparklet' CO2 bulb onto an oil well, a technique introduced in US oil fields during the early 70's, should more than pay for the carbon capture technology, as would I'm sure the carbon credits won by using this old tried and tested technique.

Those old North Sea platforms could also be given a new lease of life, either pumping CO2 down the well or previously unrecoverable oil and gas reserves out of it.

I dare say they could also be modified to capture marine renewables too, if even a fraction of the same funding were provided that nuclear has recieved as a historical matter of fact. Thinking of Salter's ducks scuppered by the nuclear lobby 20-odd years ago.
39

livilion,

livingston 20/04/2009 22:02:09
#38 Colin, Glasgow

So, please excuse me if I appear thick, how much are you projecting policing and maintaining nuclear sites is going to cost over, say, your 600 years, or even that(worst case?) 10,000 years?

Its just that before we have cleaned up even the first Magnox reactor cores we are now past the £75bn mark, and I am surprised at how little impact this has on the price of your nuclear kiloWatthour of electricity, given a comparitively short 40-60year working life for each reactor.
40

The Tin Man,

21/04/2009 07:31:11
#39 livilion

It is slightly cheaper and easier to use seawater, of which there is an abundance adjacent to the platforms.

Acording to BP, the Miller platform decommissioning cost is 'over £200 million' - about 50-75% of nuclear decommisioning, excluding the decomissioning costs of the actual power station.

For your information, platform decomissioning also involves low-level radioactive waste disposal "The North Sea offshore industry is well aware that the only current land-based disposal route for low specific activity (LSA), at Drigg, in Cumbria, northwest England, is unable to take the volumes that are generated."
41

Colin, Glasgow,

21/04/2009 10:20:49
Livilion #40 “So, please excuse me if I appear thick, how much are you projecting policing and maintaining nuclear sites is going to cost over, say, your 600 years, or even that(worst case?) 10,000 years?”

I am sure we have been through this before.

The point about deep geological disposal is that it does not require protection, policing, or maintenance after it is sealed. (They probably will monitor it, but it is designed to be robust enough so that it does not require monitoring or intervention; and passively secure enough to prevent covert nefarious intrusion).

The likely disposal cost is in the region of a few tens of thousands of £ per cubic metre. See this for an argument over what the cost should be:
http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/files/pdfs/nuclear/Nukenomics-Jackson.pdf

Torness produces about 150 cubic metres of high and intermediate level waste per year. And about 8.3tWh of electricity, or 8.3 billion kWh.

http://www.british-energy.com/documents/EPD_Exec_Summary.pdf

So assuming a disposal cost of £100,000 per cubic metre (which is probably on the high side); it amounts to £15 million per year for 8.3 billion kWh. Considerably less than 0.1p/kWh.


42

Colin, Glasgow,

21/04/2009 10:23:02
Livilion #40 continued..
“Its just that before we have cleaned up even the first Magnox reactor cores we are now past the £75bn mark, and I am surprised at how little impact this has on the price of your nuclear kiloWatthour of electricity, given a comparitively short 40-60year working life for each reactor.”

Firstly, the headline decommissioning figure includes a huge amount of research and military development sites which are not powerstations. Secondly, the old magnox stations were not particularly well designed for decommissioning, so they are quite costly to decommission. Thirdly that figure is not discounted for the fact that it will be paid in future. The real discounted cost should be lower.

But even if we ignore these considerations, the cost of decommissioning the legacy plant divided by the amount of electricity supplied, gives us about 2.5p/kWh.

When you consider that only a fifth of that headline figure is for the actual magnox powerstations (as opposed to research sites etc), it brings it down to 0.5p/kWh.

When you consider that new powerstations would be more efficient and specifically built to be cheap to decommission, it brings the figure down to perhaps 0.2p/kWh. Discounted it might be as little as 0.1p/kWh.

43

Me Bungo Pony,

23/04/2009 00:33:34
And what happens when the available nuclear fuel is rapidly used up by the increasing number of nuclear power stations .... or when the price rises due to increasing scarcity .... or the countries who have the deposits decide not to sell to us anymore (having no deposits of our own)? Nuclear does NOT give Scotland energy security.
44

Colin, Glasgow,

23/04/2009 12:25:07
#44 Most of the world’s uranium comes from commonwealth countries like Australia and Canada. The supply is relatively secure.

Also, it is relatively easy to stockpile years’-worth of uranium. It only takes up 1/10,000th of the space of fossil fuel. Even without a new supply, nuclear powerstations can run for months on a single fuel load.

There is a limit to how expensive uranium can get. It is possible to extract uranium from seawater; and the cost of doing this is about 2 or 3 times the current cost of mining uranium. There is a virtually unlimited quantity of uranium in the sea. So the maximum uranium price won’t exceed 2 or 3 times the current price for long.

Furthermore the price of uranium has little impact on electricity price. (Most of the cost of nuclear electricity comes from the capital cost of the plant; next comes fuel processing and operation.) If the price of uranium doubles, it would increase the cost of nuclear electricity by about 7%. In comparison, doubling the cost of gas causes the price of gas-fired electricity to increase by about 70%. So in the long term, the price of uranium will never make nuclear electricity expensive.

 

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