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1500 energy workers in Scotland walk out over 'discrimination'

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Published Date: 30 January 2009
MORE than 1500 workers in Scotland were on strike today over the use of foreign workers on a multimillion-pound construction project.
Mechanical contractors at seven sites, including Grangemouth oil refinery and three power stations, have taken part in the unofficial action, union officials said.

They acted in support of workers in England who walked out on Wednesday over the decision to bring in hundreds of Italian and Portuguese contractors to work on a new £200 million plant at the giant Lindsey oil refinery in North Killingholme, North Lincolnshire.

Seven hundred BP and INEOS workers in Grangemouth oil refinery took the action after a union meeting held at 8am today.

Bobby Buirds, a regional officer for Unite in Scotland, said: "The argument is not against foreign workers, it's against foreign companies discriminating against British labour.

"If the job of these mechanical contractors at INEOS finishes and they try to get jobs down south, the jobs are already occupied by foreign labour and their opportunities are decreasing.

"This is a fight for work. It is a fight for the right to work in our own country.

"It is not a racist argument at all."

Mr Buirds said mechanical contractors at six other Scottish sites, in addition to Grangemouth, were also on unofficial strike.

About 500 walked out at Scottish Power's Longannet power station, and about 100 at its Cockenzie power station, while 80 stopped work at British Energy's Torness power station.

At the Shell St Fergus gas processing plant in Aberdeenshire, about 50 workers downed tools, while about 100 stopped work at ExxonMobil's petrochemicals plant in Mossmoran in Fife, as did some workers at the Shell plant in Mossmoran.

Unions will hold another meeting of Scottish shop stewards in Glasgow this afternoon, and a further meeting on Monday, he said.

There was no demonstration at Grangemouth today.

A spokesman for INEOS said: "We are very disappointed that the contractors have chosen to walk out, especially as we've got a good working relationship with them.

"Our plants are operational and there is no issue as regards safety, and there will be no impact on production levels at all."

He said not all the contractors at Grangemouth are covered by the National Joint Council for the Engineering Construction Industry agreement, which agrees common terms and conditions for contractors across the UK, and some were still working as normal.

The Grangemouth strike included about 100 workers with contractors employed by BP, the oil firm said.

They work in the Kinneil terminal – part of the Grangemouth complex where North Sea oil from the Forties pipeline comes ashore.

A BP spokesman said: "The workers are not involved in day-to-day operations and the Forties pipeline system will continue to operate as normal."

The Grangemouth refinery was sold by BP to INEOS in 2005.

The dispute at the Total Lindsey oil refinery erupted after Total put the contract to build the unit, which will allow the refinery to process crude oil with more sulphur, out to tender.

Total said it hopes the plant will give the refinery the capacity to process oil even when North Sea reserves begin to dwindle.

Five UK and two European companies tendered for the work, which was awarded to the Italian company Irem on the basis that it was supplying a permanent workforce.

It is understood 100 Italian and Portuguese workers are on the site. They are expected to be joined by 300 more next month.

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1

Micjonger,

30/01/2009 12:49:52
Presumably the Italian company was awarded the contract because it could demonstrate that it was not only cheaper,but the quality of its workforce was higher in terms of reliabilty & "will to work ethos",as well as very low sicknes rates.
2

daffy_b,

30/01/2009 12:51:58
It's about time we stood up to BRITISH jobs being lost.

Hundreds of thousands of BRITISH jobs have been offshored or outsourced to India, South Africa, Europe etc - just to make more profits for the boards/shareholders.

British workers needs to start to make a stand about cross-border job losses and about bringing in non-British labour.
3

New Town Resident,

30/01/2009 13:03:40
Note there are also strikes on Teeside, and in South Wales.

Some facts;

1. They are not striking against foreign workers.

2. They are striking against not being allowed to apply for jobs being carried out by foreign contractors in Britain. So let's not hear the excuse that British workers can get jobs elsewhere in the EU. The fundamental point is that they are not being allowed to apply for jobs with foreign contractors for work in Britain.

3. It would not have been possible under British discrimnation laws to prevent local workers applying for these jobs until a European Court ruling in 2007 on Estonian ferries.

This is what happens when you hand over your laws to someone else. The ECJ ruling fits the way things are done on the continent where contractors have own permanent staff, whereas here contractor workers are hired per job and move around between contractors.

Isn't it interesting? Seems that in this industry at least English, Scottish and Welsh workers think they all work in the same country, and that they are being discriminated against by EU regulations.

How very right wing of them!

4

,

30/01/2009 13:07:48
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5

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 13:07:51
Where did the other thread go ?

1. You are completely and utterly wrong.

2. This has got nothing to do with foreign workers, it is about foreign based contractors discriminating against UK workers.

3. Agree with you in part, but would add the caveat that in issuing tenders companies can insert a clause that the successfull contractor whould use local skilled workers if available: that is all the unions are asking for.
6

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 13:09:13
4 Why do you bother posting when all you can offer is mince ?
7

New Town Resident,

30/01/2009 13:10:11
1. No. Simply because the Italian company has a contract with their own workers guaranteeing them first chance at any contracts they get. These sort of contracts only now stick outside of Italy because of the ECJ ruling. Its impossible to say why the Italian company got the job. Its unlikely to be wage rates even though it was struck last year before the big Euro movement. There could be any number of complex relationships between this company and Total across Europe.

8

steve 1511,

aberdeen 30/01/2009 13:21:21
its friday a walkout and a strike are just fine for a long weekend,the unions have stood by and watched as the lybour party under blair and the gibbering broon have signed up to the E U. and given away our rights and laws, why were they not questioning these agreements before they become practise with their fellow comrades in europe,no good shutting the gate,the horse has bolted.

WE ARE DOOMEDWITH BROON,DOOOMED
9

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 13:21:26
1. We are actually very good at this kind of work. We have very skilled workers who are being locked out of competing for work because greedy bosses are employing sub-contractors who bring in their own workforce to undercut UK workers. This dispute is about access to employment. The unions are right. This is NOT about objecting to foreign workers, it's about objecting to contracts being issued which discriminate against people who are entirely equipped to do the job, and do it well.
10

New Town Resident,

30/01/2009 13:22:55
5. Your point 3. Not any more I think. The is what the ECJ ruling on the Estonian ferry dispute was all about.

Ironically the ECJ thought their ruling was about protecting jobs. Their model is that everyone has a permanent contract and was a sop to continental public sector unions.

In principle I think there are only 2 ways round this, ignore ECJ rulings (my way) or pass a law in the UK that all UK jobs are on permanent contract.

There is of course a third softer way.

Continental companies wouldn't think of employing a foreign company with their own staff on permanent contract because of the aggro it would cause locally. That why all the continental contractors are coming here now the work is drying up on their home turf. since they are liable for the permanent staff wages anyway they are probably pricing at a loss.

However a few more days of this and I rather doubt the British companies will be quite so keen on employing these loss leaders after all?

So job done by the workers. Don't look to your politicos to help you.
11

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 13:29:20
10 I am obviously not as au-fait as you with tendering rules. But I know we do this in the public sector. We have to comply with EU tendering rules, but we can add clauses in that we will employ local people when all other things are equal.

There is no way that we are going to get a situation where all UK jobs are on a permanent contract.

But ultimately I agree with your last point, workers are going to have to look after their own interests, that's what these guys are doing, and all the best to them.
12

frank mcbride,

lusitania 30/01/2009 13:41:16
#2, daffy_b.

Good afternoon, Rufus.
13

e-sterka,

30/01/2009 13:43:27
I don´t understand. Or I do?
14

frank mcbride,

lusitania 30/01/2009 13:45:20
Maybe now, workers will see the sense in having a strong TU movement.

It's as true today as it's ever been, "Hang together or hang alone!"
15

frank mcbride,

lusitania 30/01/2009 13:46:17
#13

Of course you do.
16

e-sterka,

30/01/2009 13:52:07
Are you speaking about happy-end?
17

e-sterka,

30/01/2009 13:53:21
funny?
18

Eric D,

30/01/2009 14:22:06
British jobs for their union members more like, since the unions have been pretty quiet about the foreign worker tsunami (1 in 7 in the UK ), and the resultant British worker displacement. Now that their members are directly affected, they're crying wolf. Welcome to the 21st century lads , and enjoy the fruits of globalization !
19

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 14:34:28
I have never been called a racist and reactionary mouth piece before Tommy, because I'm not. You are living in fantasy island. Of course what these companies are doing is not illegal - laws are made by the employer class. If you want to side with them, that is your perrogative.
20

Stan Butler,

30/01/2009 14:48:41

The workers being brought in aren't necessarily being paid less than the local workers.

The point is that by using foreign contractors who employ foreign labour the trade unions are effectively been frozen out.

This isn't about race or nationality, it's about trade union rights.
21

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 14:59:52
23 You're very sweet Tommy. International workers of the world unite, blah de blah de blah.

Meantime, in the real world..........
22

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 15:03:16
21 Correct.

22. Our workers are more than capable of this work. They are being frozen out to make greedy bosses even richer.

23

Stan Butler,

30/01/2009 15:07:19
#23 tommytommy,


That's rubbish.

For you, tommy, the class war is over.
24

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30/01/2009 15:09:35
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25

,

30/01/2009 15:10:00
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26

danbob,

30/01/2009 15:10:36
23# The point is we have had this free market foisted on us and have never had a say in the matter. I didn't vote in 97 for a situation where foreign workers would be brought in from abroad whilst skilled british workers were staring at the dole queue. This situation was predictable but Blair and Brown wouldn't listen due to bloody minded arrogance. It won't go away and now people have had a taste from the refinary workers and seen the support they have got, It will happen again and again.
27

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 15:13:58
31 On the contrary, Stan/Baffled, and indeed Grahamski, are well versed in trade unionism and socialism. When I agree with them I have no qualms in admitting it.
28

Stan Butler,

30/01/2009 15:14:47
#27 Ex-con Jack,

Apologies, I could have phrased that better. What I should have said is the right of workers to join a trade union and the right of a union to effectively represent its members.

Unions have gradually been getting stronger in the construction industry. Awarding this contract to a company that's shipping in its own workforce is an attempt to stop that process.
29

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 15:17:27
28 So - you live without employment do you ?
30

,

30/01/2009 15:25:55
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31

e-sterka,

30/01/2009 15:26:18
Scotty I don´t understand
32

Wardog™,

30/01/2009 15:27:29


"British Jobs for British Workers"

The hollowness and narrowness of Brown's statement should be very clear for all too see..... he refuses to accept that we operate in a European context where he and the UK Government have pushed for open markets.

He can't have it both ways, open markets = no protectionism for anyone.

I understand too from the independent that his plans for "Museum of British History' has been pilloried by every reputable museum in the UK, and that they have said it is a stupid idea with no future.

With less than 50% of people in England calling themselves british, is it any wonder that Brown and his 'unionist' clarion calls are falling on deaf ears.

33

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 15:29:21
36 You are just making an @rse of yourself now. What UK worker is banned from applying for a job from ASDA ?

Dismissed.
34

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30/01/2009 15:30:02
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35

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30/01/2009 15:30:27
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36

e-sterka,

30/01/2009 15:37:30
Scotty, I am without a job?
37

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 15:38:10
41 No - this is very serious. Engineering and construction are very important to the UK economy. It supports many many skilled workers - who are on a good wage. Companies are awarding contracts to foreign contractors (fair enough) who are excluding UK workers from employment. That is not fair enough. The UK Govt is investing billions into the economy to try and encourage employment. Sitting back and letting UK workers lounge on the dole (instead of spending their hard-earned cash) to allow companies to make profits from shipping foreign workers in as part of sub-contracting deals is absolute madness,

And it is completely undermining the trade union role in collective bargaining to represent workers interests by not employing trade unionised workers.

It's a bad deal however you look at it, unless you are a greedy company who wants to get a margin more profit, and doesn't give two hoots about the social consequences.
38

W Smith,

Middle East 30/01/2009 15:46:51
I fail to see how pro-EU Brown and Salmond can stay quiet on this one and not condemn the snivelling work-shy Trade Union leaders.

If you believe in the EU this is what you get.

Not just a common market but also common job market.

Imagine if Bush, Cheny and others had complained about Hispanics and Mexicans in the USA 'stealing' US jobs.

BTW
EU membership allowed Scottish Lefties like George Galloway (Salmonds protest friend) to buy a villa relatively cheaply in Portugal at a price very few Portugese could afford!

Advantage Galloway.

So the Scottish Trade Union leaders have a problem with that as well then, eh?

As an economist Salmond isn't very bright.
39

Man On Corstorphine Omnibus,

Edinburgh 30/01/2009 16:00:49
Aye. To paraphrase Gordon Brown: "British jobs for Bulgarian workers!"

It seems that, now it increasingly threatens their own futures, more and morepeople are starting to see through the foolishness of our open borders and loopy immigration non-policy.

Unfortunately, this policy has been supported by the trade unions (or at least the TU bosses), keen to be seen as champions of "multiculturalism", etc. Can't they get it into their thick heads that less jobs plus more applicants equals lower wages? It's nothing to do with being right or left wing - it's basic economics.
40

Stan Butler,

30/01/2009 16:03:36
#50 tomy tommy tommy tommy tommy

Are the Italian and Portuguese workers trade union members?
41

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 16:10:11
50 You are the first in line to be a complete dunce.
42

e-sterka,

30/01/2009 16:21:16
Scotty, I cannot fight. I have to go home to my children.
43

Jimmy Le Pie,

30/01/2009 16:23:31
"british jobs for british workers" said our Glorious Leader, Comrade Broon.

This was more to do with showing himself to be british and not Scottish.

For all his self proclaimed vision, he never saw that this one would come back to haunt him - idiot!

Oh, when is "britishness day"??
and when do our schoolkids have to swear allegiance to the queen and the butcher's apron??
44

The Hon. Liam Fairtod,

30/01/2009 16:24:12
So. While these good, honest, reliable British workers are out on strike, presumably these dodgy, fly-by-night, cheap-as-chips foreigners are turning up and doing what they're paid to do?

Makes you think, don't it?
45

,

30/01/2009 16:28:49
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46

,

30/01/2009 16:32:16
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47

Jimmy Le Pie,

30/01/2009 16:35:49
#57 Traquir , Alba,

I heard on the radio today that Alex Ferguson has knocked back suggestions made by Comrade Broon that he manage the team gb football squad.

If there was enough money in the job, would Lard Foolkes manage the team???
48

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30/01/2009 16:41:38
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49

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30/01/2009 16:47:12
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50

arc of insolvency,

30/01/2009 17:14:59
I see the SNP bigots are out as usual.

Well done to the strikers it's time to stand up for ourselves.
51

Alexander the Scot,

Michigan, U.S.A. 30/01/2009 17:47:38
;;;;;;;
52

Nevsky;,

Moscow 30/01/2009 18:02:51
'British jobs for British workers'

Didn't Brown say that somewhere over the rainbow?
53

Stan Butler,

30/01/2009 18:18:42

It is regrettable that The British jobs for British Workers slogan seems to have been used by some of those involved and not surprisingly has been picked up by the media, no doubt for their own ends.

The argument however isn't between the local workforce and the Italian and Portuguese workers (it's significant that they are being housed in barges, thus preventing any contact with the locals). Building workers, more than any other part of the working class know only too well what it's like to have to go abroad to find work. Over the last few years there have been plenty of foreign building workers who have moved to the UK for work and for the most part have been accepted by the locals.

The argument is between the local workforce and the plant management who awarded a contract to a company that was going to move its workforce in en masse.

I don't know what wage rates these workers are on but by the time you add on the cost of their accommodation I can't see that they will be any cheaper than the locals to employ.

There is a risk that this dispute could turn into a very nasty, nationalist protectionist and racist debacle. Hopefully it won't.
54

Rock Lobster,

30/01/2009 18:22:04

The foreign workers will soon be undercut by the unemployed, working for there dole money.
55

Rock Lobster,

30/01/2009 18:24:23

British jobs for British unemployed,

Working for there dole money.
56

Rock Lobster,

30/01/2009 18:26:35

Britian will have the lowest paid, flexible workforce
in Europe.

Working for there dole money.
57

Jimmy Le Pie,

30/01/2009 18:33:56
lobster

you do mean 'their' don't you???
58

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30/01/2009 18:35:06
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59

Rock Lobster,

30/01/2009 18:42:49

Pie,

The unemployed will buy pies with their dole money.

They say the hole is the best bit.
60

Arthur G,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 18:43:28
"British jobs for British workers"
quoth Der Führer, Adolf Braun, leader of the little Englander [National]Socialist Labour government.

Well that comment has certainly come back and bit you on the arze, eh, Gordo!
61

Jimmy Le Pie,

30/01/2009 18:52:21
Sam, the man everyone laughs at.

I've checked the BNP membership lists and I can't find your details.

Seems to me you're full of she ite!!!
62

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/01/2009 18:57:32
Never heard about any complaints on the British front when Taylor Woodrow - or Taylor Wimpey (or whatever) was hiring through the construction grapevine for contracts in Poland. At fantastic rates.

Less than 2 years ago. Never even saw it reported.

Anyone who has worked in construction will understand the need to have a team of people who can blend together through mutual understanding.

How many local workers could blend in with an Italian workforce? Eh? Communicate in Italian and adapt to the Italian work ethics and practices?

63

St Caledonia,

30/01/2009 19:05:42
The foreigners want to work, whereas so many Scots are happy to sit on their a$$es and claim the dole.
64

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/01/2009 19:11:02
re 78. It smacks to me of union posturing - quite what is uniting about Unite is beyond me.

I did notice union enlistment reps coming round the sites a couple of years ago but never thought anything of it. Unions will kill construction stone dead.

As if it is not already.

I would welcome a Danish or Swedish company to tender for the next Forth crossing.

Thing is, they all end up taking on local labour anyway.
65

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30/01/2009 19:16:10
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66

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/01/2009 19:19:41
Did anyone complain when Telewest in Scotland subbed out the cable laying contract to a Geordie company?
67

lachlan,

30/01/2009 19:27:14
workers unite.doesn't matter what country you are from you working to feed your family.i am sure 'brittish'trade unions will back our eurpean cousins on the the right to work.
these people who walked out today are contract workers.they follow the work.yes some even to italy.
68

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/01/2009 19:27:37
re 82. I did. Know why?

Well, because of the mess they left behind.

Still wonder how it's cheaper to have an imported work force rather than a local one.

Bet my cable is not at the required depth - judging by the placement of my wee plastic toby in the footpath - the one everybody trips themselves on.
69

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/01/2009 19:33:29
83, danielrober,

"Why not have an open/public bid/competition and allow all Europeans companies to try, including British companies."

Indeed - why not? Is it not the legal requirement?

The point is that, because it is not petro-chemical, Unite would have no muscles to flex.
70

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30/01/2009 19:35:59
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71

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 19:38:54
69 I agree with you completely the British jobs for British workers phrase is not helpful and is distracting from what the core issue is. That is NOT about foreign workers. It is about companies granting contracts to contractors who deny UK workers the right to compete for employment, and people being brought in who's very housing and subsistence is dependent upon their employer, like slaves.

It is a major retrograde step, an attack on workers rights, an attack on trade unionism, and a gift to thuggish racists like the BNP.

I just wish more people would understand the issues here.
72

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/01/2009 19:42:30
89, Observer.

Have you ever worked on a building site?
73

walter,

30/01/2009 19:45:35
I can only presume with what is being said on here and other media outlets by those supporting these strikers is that if a company tenders a bid for work of any kind and that work is not in the country that the company comes from then they should not use the workers they already have on their books but employ workers from the country that they won the bid to do the work in.
Do they also agree that when British companies tender for work abroad they should not use their workforce from the UK but employ people from that country.
74

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 19:49:42
90 Jock. We are not talking about bringing over some Polish brickies OK ? We are talking about major engineering and construction projects that skilled UK workers will get no chance of working on because the sub-contractors are bringing in their own workforce. That is economic madness in a recession. It is also an anti-trade unionist measure (not that I expect you will give two hoots about that). In my (informed) view, UNITE are completely correct to oppose it.

No I haven't worked on a building site. So what, I know how things are - I give the line to contractors, I don't do the work myself.
75

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30/01/2009 19:52:06
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76

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 19:53:34
91 this would not happen in any other comparable country. No other EU countries workforce would stand for it. You seem to think ours should.
77

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/01/2009 19:58:20
Oh Jeez. Between danierober and Observer, we do appear to have a couple of union penpushers with no practical experience of construction
78

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 20:00:47
You are talking mince Jock. Just take your blinkers off, see the scale of this, stop thinking about your own experience, and just in general think.
79

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30/01/2009 20:08:19
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80

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/01/2009 20:09:26
100, Observer, if you have no experience of construction sites then you should look in the mirror before stating that someone else is talking mince.

Construction is done in phases.

In this case it would be civils, construction, M&E alongside the wiring etc.

I would be very surprised if the company who was awarded the contract was not looking for local steelfixers, shuttering joiners or even labourers before the works got out of the ground.

You are acting like a knee jerk trade unionist. The scale of what?
81

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/01/2009 20:11:51
101 danielrober. Bo you cause the storm in a teacup or do you perpetuate it by stirring?
82

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 20:16:28
103 I can only suggest you find out what you are talking about before posting on it Jock. I usually find that's a good idea.
83

Stan Butler,

30/01/2009 20:20:16
Sadly all the reports are indicating that this dispute is going down the divisive, protectionist, nationalist route. It's not exactly up there (or rather down there) with the dockers coming out for Powell, but it has similar overtones.

I just hope there are enough decent socialists involved to stop the thing getting any worse.
84

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/01/2009 20:21:15
106, Observer, ditto.

If you have no idea how construction works then you should not comment this story either.

I have a fair understanding on how the unions are trying to gain power though.
85

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 20:26:45
107 As most people don't seem to know what it's about that's hardly surprising. The British jobs thing is a bummer, it's skewing the whole thing.

108 I know exactly how construction works Jock I told you that.
86

me-here,

an open minded europe 30/01/2009 20:29:49
I've got two european passports, my wife is from abroad.
Let me tell these so called "british workers" where they can stuff their protest.
A disgrace that the "unite" plays this dirty bnp game with its members. All the rats are coming out of there nazi hideaways and think they have something important to say.
I say, bring in more foreign workers, till the day when education strikes these bnp rats that call themselves "british workers"!
Unfortunatly this will never happen.
2009! Where have these idiots all been the last 20 years?
87

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/01/2009 20:32:16
Broon says "Britisch jobs for Britischers"

Unite organises strikes under the mantra of: "Britisch jobs for Britischers".

This will come back to haunt Broon.

Nationalalist indeed, Stan Butler@107, Britisch nationalist as per the Union.

Unilateralism works 2 ways though.
88

Alba Abú,

30/01/2009 20:39:21
105 daniel the robber ( alias big finger. )
Begone,IDIOT.
89

Jock Tamson,

30/01/2009 20:39:47
"No I haven't worked on a building site."

"108 I know exactly how construction works Jock I told you that."

There you go, folks. 2 quotes from Observer. I refer the rest of his postings to the jury and put it to you that this p-erson is acting in a knee-jerk manner as someone who is a union fantacist with no grasp of construction reality.
90

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 20:59:51
114

1. I'm not a he.

2. ''Construction is done in phases''

''I would be surprised if the company who was
awarded the contract was not looking for....
before the works go out of the ground''

Wrong, that's why there have been 17 wildcats. The contractors are bidding for and getting every stage of construction and bringing in a permanent workforce. There are NO opportunities for UK skilled trades and engineers. And that pattern is growing. All to make the company an extra buck, and screw the worker in the middle of a recession.

Why do you think they are on strike ?
91

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/01/2009 21:20:02
115, Observer. Apologies over the gender mistake.

I did not say that different companies tender over different phases of a contract, I mentioned different phases of a contract which involves different skilled trades.

However, If a European Union country from outwith the UK can afford to make a tender over here, using its own workforce then perhaps we should be looking at their practices and learning. Over here it's all subbed out.

Cross-border construction is relatively new(post WWtwa)in Europe and if the UK is lagging behind then that is not the fault of the Italians and Portuguese.

You make a matter of fact statement about 17 wildcat strikes - are you proud of them?

If you ever get some exerience of construction at the sharp end give me a shout.

92

Observer,,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 21:28:49
117 Our workers would never get the chance to go over en-masse and nick a whole project from the French. Or the Italians. You know that as well as me - they would go @peshit. I agree we do too much subbing, but that's not the precise issue here. The issue is that there are a growing number of big big contracts where UK workers are getting frozen out - and we couldn't go to the EU locations of the contractors doing the freezing out and do the same thing back. The domestic workers wouldn't stand for it so why should ours.

Anyway I'm off now let me know if your building anything my way and I'll take you up on it.
93

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/01/2009 21:33:54
118,Observer,,
we have to ask why not. Not take the h u m p (Jeez, is that a bad word?) and spit the dummy. Take it up with Broon instead of on the public.

94

Stan Butler,

30/01/2009 21:38:21
#117 Jock

This isn't a new build site.

It's a desulpharisation plant being added to an existing refinery.

I worked on the Texaco plant in Pembrokeshire 30 odd years ago when the refinery was converted to a cracker plant which will be a broadly similar operation, albeit on a much larger scale.. From experience you have ground workers, steel fixers, chippies, concreters, welders, fitters, sparks etc etc working at the same time so your argument is invalid.
95

Stan Butler,

30/01/2009 21:50:45
#78 Jock

As you should know two years ago there were hardly any building workers left in Poland. They were all working abroad. The Polish Government were actually appealing for their tradesmen to return home. It therefore was hardly surprising that contractors were looking for other workers to work there.
96

Stan Butler,

30/01/2009 21:54:25
#78 Jock

'How many local workers could blend in with an Italian workforce? Eh? Communicate in Italian and adapt to the Italian work ethics and practices?'



Well they could probably manage it as well as the Portuguese, couldn't they?

That argument is ballcocks, isn't it.
97

me-here,

EUROPE 30/01/2009 21:56:04
"It is not a racist argument at all."

Sure, jump in the mud and tell me it's not dirty where you are!
98

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/01/2009 22:11:24
Stan, various,

Testes to you too. Doesn't matter where the multi million pound project is being built - it's still a multi million pound project.

If you check back to my other posts you will note that I mention other scenarios which happen on sites.

30 years ago, when you worked on a site, things were a tad different. Otherwise you would realise that what I am saying now is relevant.
99

David North,

London 30/01/2009 22:24:00
I work for an IT outsourcing company.

For the past 3 weeks I have been told to train up some of our Indian friends in work that is not even outsourced, under the premise that we would be released to do more intelligent work.

Its all to do with shareholder cheapness and nowt all else.
100

David North,

London 30/01/2009 22:25:12
PS: Ive jsut been censored in saying "Bug@@er all else".

Typical of this rag..
101

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/01/2009 22:27:13
While I can be bothered, Stan.

Polish workers were over here working by "undercutting" the going rates.

Taylor Woodrow - or Wimpy (or whatever they call themselves today)- were offering £29ph plus accommodation for steelfixers and shuttering joiners to work in Poland.

You do the maths yourself with regards to the values when European companies can tender at more competitive rates than UK ones.
102

David North,

London 30/01/2009 22:30:53
My previous comments on were to state that , all industries are being undercut by cheap foreign import.

Not just building.
103

David North,

London 30/01/2009 22:32:42
I have a chap at work. From Bangalore. Nice as pie he is. However I have to train him in my 28 years of IT experience in 9 weeks. Its just not going to happen....
104

David North,

London 30/01/2009 22:36:19
I get paid, £26.00 per hour. My Indian friend gets £2.50 per hour, all from the same employer.

105

me-here,

SCOTLAND IN EUROPE 30/01/2009 22:39:04
"I get paid, £26.00 per hour."

Guess where the problem lies...........
106

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 30/01/2009 22:40:07
Dave North. Couple of interesting posts. The automaton censor requires a dictionary lesson. Even words published in the articles are forbidden to use by posters.

Thing about India is they produce good computer programmers. Funny thing is, when I wanted a website debugged this Indian company decided that $1000 up front would be enough for starters.

Solved the problem myself in 2 hours.

Anyway. Same thing as with the Polish workers. If they come here for cheap labour how come the international market is demanding the same prices?
107

Arthur G,

Glasgow 30/01/2009 22:41:54
You know, this may be just the tipping point. Bliar, and the New Labour lie were accepted by the Trade Unions and part of the Left because "things could only get better" and with B roons smoke and mirrors it all went well for a while. Now the house of cards has collapsed, the economy is down the toilet, We are not producing anything because no one can afford to buy,unemployment is skyrocketing and Broon is still wandering around as the world's saviour. Well, he can, can't he as he still has a job (at the moment).

There is an old adage that people with full bellies don't revolt. Well, there is now a lot hungry folk out there and it's only going to get a lot worse.

108

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia,Alba 30/01/2009 22:48:16
133, Arthur G (how's that for a rhyme?).

People with full bellies don't revolt. Eh?

Well, I 've had a belly full of Broon and I'm revolted by it.
109

Stan Butler,

30/01/2009 23:28:19
#134 Jock

Most of your posts are unintelligible.

Such bits as are intelligible are either factually inaccurate or utterly fatuous.

I suspect you are a gnat.
110

Neil Waugh,

Old Strathcona 30/01/2009 23:28:27
Stick to your guns, lads.
It's pretty clear that the Great Helmsman of the "British" workers party doesn't have your back.
Gordon Brown's a d0rk.
111

bertie1874,

Sydney 30/01/2009 23:34:34
I am more worried by the fact England thinks it neads a huge oil refinery.
112

Edward,

31/01/2009 00:04:42
Needs to be a reality check!

First of the union Unite is trying it on with the backing of Gordon Brown in order to try and disatrct people from his crass stupidity!
Some are now questioning as to why so many are being made to come out to demonstrate against Italian engineer workers building a refinery, that British workers will be employed to operate!
These Italian workers are skilled in this type of construction, there are NO, repeat NO UK companies that can actually carry this work out! The situation regarding this project is very much old news, as it was reported a year ago!. Something that Unite dont like talking about
113

Edward,

31/01/2009 00:09:05
#137
Actually your right to be concerned as this enlarged refinery is aimed at replacing the capacity at Grangemouth (this was reported last year when work was about to start) Scotland should realy be concerned worried as there is the likelyhood that Grangemouth will be moth balled or closed completely leaving Scotland with no refining capacity

 

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