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New bridge payment plan questioned

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Published Date: 10 December 2008
Labour today called on ministers to explain how they plan to pay for the new Forth Road Bridge.
The call came as transport minister Stewart Stevenson prepared to set out the government's big-ticket transport priorities for the period from 2012 until 2022.

Mr Stevenson will detail the outcome of the "strategic transport review" in a statement
to Parliament.

The Labour demand on the funding of the Forth bridge came ahead of the statement.

Finance secretary John Swinney announced last December that ministers have ruled out building a tunnel and were proposing a new bridge, at a cost of between £3.25 billion and £4.22 billion,

Labour's Andy Kerr said today: "The Scottish Government must explain how they intend to fund the new Forth Road Bridge.

"The new crossing will be an acid test for the Scottish Futures Trust, which was supposed to be the SNP's big idea for major projects.

"Instead, it has been an embarrassing failure.

"The SNP's inability to bring forward a workable model for funding public sector construction projects is Alex Salmond's personal contribution to the unemployment statistics."

The transport review whose findings will be announced today began in the summer of 2006.

It will make recommendations for transport projects for the years up to 2022.

But it will not cover projects already committed to, like the Borders rail link, the M74 extension, and the Aberdeen western by-pass, nor will it cover air or sea transport projects.



Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 10 December 2008 10:30 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Forth Bridges , Labour Party
 
1

Alan B,

10/12/2008 10:42:24
It seems almost stupid that during the so called boom economic yrs money was not put aside for this scheme. Waiting until there is a massive recession shows labour complete short sightedness and general contempt for scotland in its economic management.
2

Grahamski,

Falkirk 10/12/2008 10:54:04
1 & 2
So, that'll be another SNP executive failure put down to being somebody else's fault....jeez, these SNP ministers just don't understand responsibility, do they?
3

Alan B,

10/12/2008 11:05:09
#Grahamski

What are you on about?

We have a decade of large public expenditure rises. Some of that should have been put aside to save for capital replacement like this bridge.

Now we are in a huge economic mess due to Browns sheer economic incompetence and as a result money will be very tight and government debt will be huge. Oh and there has been no money put aside to replace this bridge. Daft is the word.

There just has been no forward planning.
4

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 10/12/2008 11:17:15
''is Alex Salmond's personal contribution to the unemployment statistics''

Well, he's a rank amateur compared to Gordon Brown, and that statement will come back and bite Labour on the ass when unemployment hits four million before too long.

And Labour's crowing over the SNP admittedly hitting a few hurdles establishing the SFT will also come back to haunt them when the real cost of PFI - their baby -is revealed in april next year.




5

Grahamski,

Falkirk 10/12/2008 11:17:25
5
Yep, you're right enough, it's all somebody else's fault...how long before this defence is seen through as the pathetic buck passing it truly is? Time for the SNP to explain their policy, I take it the F in SFT stands for fantasy?
6

Grahamski,

Falkirk 10/12/2008 11:19:56
6
A few hurdles? Good yin!
7

Shave,

Edinburgh 10/12/2008 11:21:34
#2 Alan B - "It seems almost stupid that during the so called boom economic yrs money was not put aside for this scheme."

Given that the bridge could last a further 80 years I think we have a bit of time to save.
8

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 10/12/2008 11:21:50
7 well the F doesn't stand for buying everything on the drip and trying to hide the true cost by not counting it as public borrowing, and then getting caught out when EU rules make you add it to the balance sheet. That's the F in PFI, fantasy accounting.
9

Darien,

Panama 10/12/2008 11:29:32
Labour's Andy Kerr said today: "The Scottish Government must explain how they intend to fund the new Forth Road Bridge....despite the budget cuts imposed now and in future on Scotland by my best mates and fellow British Nationalists Gordon Brownshirt, Propaganda Minister Lord Mandelson, and Scottish High Commissioner (Sir) Lurch Murphy."

Enjoy the New Labour trough while you can, Andy. Yer times nearly up.
10

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 10/12/2008 11:29:55
In this day and age, it would be very naive to assume that the Scottish Government, of whatever political persuasion, will have the major outlay for the new Forth Crossing?

The vast majority of large infrastructure projects like bridges and motorway being built in the EU are all design, build and manage, just like the Second Severn Crossing, where the charge for a car is £5.30.

Civil engineering consortiums will be falling over themselves to tender for the new bridge. The government will negotiate with the operator for a share of the tolls and this will probably cover the cost of the approach motorways, and refurbishment of the old bridge.

Autolink Concessionaires plc which constructed the last length of the A74(M) in Scotland has a long-term contract to maintain this part of the motorway network on behalf of the Scottish Government.

IF, the non-profit Futures Trust cannot be cobbled together by the Scottish Government it will simply fall back on the above method of funding.

The new Forth Crossing is certainly not going to be free!

11

,

10/12/2008 11:33:39
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
12

Alan B,

10/12/2008 11:52:54
#Shave

The costs of a new bridge will be up front.
13

Alan B,

10/12/2008 11:55:20
#Grahamski

You comments make little sense.

If there is a strong urgency to put measures in to replace this bridge now, then that shows a total lack of planning by labour in the last 10yrs of power.

14

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 10/12/2008 12:06:15
12 darien
Well if it is difficult to fund a new bridge because of budget constraints, how does it make sense to abolish toll on the existing bridge?
15

Miss H,

10/12/2008 12:22:24
17 It made sense to abolish tolls on the Forth and Tay bridges because they have been abolished everywhere else in Scotland. The tolls had been in force on both bridges since they were built: the Forth in 1964, the Tay in 1966. So I think they have been paid for by now don’t you?

I never understood the logic of saying that people had to pay to get in and out of Fife – nowhere else in Scotland, just Fife.

Although after the Glenrothes by-election there was a certain attraction to the idea!
16

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 10/12/2008 12:24:59
12 Darien
PS Look up the Scottish govt's own website for its budget. It shows the actual and planned budgets from 2002/03 to 2010/11.

During this time span of 8 years the budget is rising from £20.970bn in 20002/03 to £35.666bn in 2010/11. that is an increase of 70% over 8 years - equivalent to an annual compounded rate of 7% per year.
17

Shave,

Edinburgh 10/12/2008 12:26:51
#15 Alan B

If the costs are provided up front, and there is a 10 year build time we still have up to 70 years to save.

The issue of replacing the road bridge came up because of the corrosion of the cables which was thought to have reduced the lifespan of the bridge. This was found in 2004. Therefore, it does not show "a total lack of planning by labour in the last 10yrs of power".

Efforts to arrest the corrosion appear to be working, and the bridge may last its designed lifespan.

£4.22 for an ADDITIONAL bridge is a waste whether it is PFI, SFT or any other funding mechanism.
18

watcher,

Edinburgh 10/12/2008 12:28:30
Miss H can you tell me who is going to pay for maintaining the Bridges because the SNP never thought about it, never mind building a new Bridge.
Well I will tell you who. The tax payers of this Country that`s who. Even the ones that don`t drive or who don`t or never have used the Bridge.
Before, at least, if you used it you paid for it.
19

Ugly George,

10/12/2008 12:30:21
18 Miss H
Have you ever travelled over the Forth Road Bridge. There is continual maintenance work on it. How is this paid for?
20

Shave,

Edinburgh 10/12/2008 12:35:02
In #20 "£4.22" should be "£4.22 billion"
21

Number 6,

Germany 10/12/2008 12:36:25
Dont Liebour just make you sick. Decades of neglect corruption and miss management is supposed to go un-noticed while this garbage try to come to terms with
their present position.

How dare they question anyones financial plans. This from a party who are borrowing billions upon billions to try and get the country out of the appalling mess they have created.

Again, their handlers quickly scramble the scottish unionista division who have come on here for yet another showing up.

Let the mock outrage commence.
22

Number 6,

Germany 10/12/2008 12:44:15
If we scrapped the financial catastrophy that is the London oylimpics, we could have a bridge over every major river in britain.

21 Watcher, can you tell me who is going to pay for the London Oylimpics. Are you aware that an admission has been dragged kicking and screaming from Liebour that it is shaping up to be a financial catastrophy.

Are you aware that there is practically NO private money coming in,. That leaves the tax-payer to pick up the bill. Once that is approved just watch the costs run completley out of control.

Great to see the guy charged with ensuring "Value for money " from the Olyimpics is now in serious trouble for illegal transactions on the stock market.

No sign in the Scottish media of this story, but carried on the BBC. Best not to let those whinging Scots know just how much they are going to have to pay for the sprucing up of London.
23

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 10/12/2008 12:51:53
25 I believe Miss H was referring to the the Forth and Tay bridges, also your comment about John Swinney it's interesting. So you think that Darling / Brown / Gray / Kerr has more experience and practical knowledge in both Balance sheet and financial planning?

As a frequent user of the bridge, what some folk on these forums forget is that the bridge has a design capacity for both volume and safety.
24

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 10/12/2008 12:55:56
17 UG if you are going to charge tolls, you should charge them on all large bridges. If not why not I mean fairness does need a reason. We all pay for infrastructure that we don't use, so why should the FRB be any different to the Kissock / Friarton / Kingston.

Surely if you want fairness folk should pay to use these bridges as well.
25

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 10/12/2008 13:04:59
28 Tomrod
I am not disagreeing with you. All I was saying that if funding for a new bridge is hard to come by for whatever reason, it surely does not make sense to scrap existing toll charges.
26

,

10/12/2008 13:38:18
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
27

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 10/12/2008 13:39:41
30 So what proposals do you think would work then ? I mean funding proposals ? That would work within the devolution envelope and avoid PFI ?
28

Miss H,

10/12/2008 13:48:14
29 I don't follow the logic of that. There is no logic to saying let's toll one bridge to pay for the building of another.

You might as well argue that we should re-introduce tolls on the Skye, Tay and Erskine bridges to pay for the new Forth crossing.
29

Miss H,

10/12/2008 13:49:41
32 There is no point in expecting an answer to that as it would have to involve an acknowledgement of the financial constraints of the current devolution settlement.
30

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 10/12/2008 13:50:34
UG I think that the capital would be available, speaking to my colleagues in corporate finance large investors, National soverign funds etc have to invest part of the fund every year externally and they look for long term relatively stable platforms e.g. government infrastructure, the problems are that the treasury and UK government ministers are on record as saying PFI is the only show in town.

We as a nation are getting more debt as a consequence, because of the short termist wish to use off balance sheet accounting. PFI maybe many things but open and transparent it is not, also the legal and accounting framework that has developed over the last 10 years make it look like an attractive package for lazy politicans, they see it as "turn key ready" But that ability comes at a cost the legal and accounting bibles as they are called are massive and very complex after all lawyers and accountants have to charge for every 6mins they work on a client project.

Also if we keep Tolls then we are back to the argument that should the users of bridges pay for the bridge or should everybody pay through the taxes. As I believe that the nation will benefit I think that it is only fair we all pay.
31

Miss H,

10/12/2008 13:53:38
21 Who pays for maintaining the Erskine Bridge, the Kincardine Bridge, the Skye Bridge - or the Kingston Bridge for that matter?

What is the logic behind treating the Forth and Tay bridges differently to other bridges? Can you explain?
32

Grahamski,

Falkirk 10/12/2008 14:08:15
33
I see the nats are up to their scummy old tricks, publishing their opponents phone numbers. No wonder the Herald banned them. Scum.
33

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 10/12/2008 14:13:46
30 a wee while ago I complemented you on a brief moment of a positive lucid comment, how brief was that flame of hope.

So you think John is hapless or that the SFT is hapless because I got the distinct impression that you wrote John was hapless and I responded by asking if you compare the background of John Swinney against GB /AD, who had more experience and knowledge of balance sheets and financial planning.

Or put it another way did John Swinney increase the national debt because of ignorance or deceit of the economic and business cycle.

Oh dear still sore about devolution "Executive" yourself and Alan Cochrane should get together for a chat.
34

Shave,

Edinburgh 10/12/2008 14:14:51
#33

Intimidation is not an acceptable political tool. It is the tool of thugs.
35

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 10/12/2008 14:33:16
40 Tell that to Peter Mandelson who threatend the MAG with legal costs if they proceeded, he or his department forgot to check on precedence of Scots Law!
36

roadstohell,

10/12/2008 15:40:44
I hope the trams will use the new crossing.
37

Rasco,

10/12/2008 15:44:37
Heard today that Gordon Brown has saved the world,so he said at Prime minister Questions.
38

Scunnert,

10/12/2008 15:50:25
Folks continue to post as if the economic crisis isn't actually happening. The "free" market system is collapsing, globalisation has failed, yet folks cling to the old paradigms.

Tell you what - let's wait for 0% interest before we look for funding for the bridge.
39

Scunnert,

10/12/2008 15:54:04
"Glasgow to become 'test-bed' for welfare reforms"

At least we know where to look for cheap labour to build the bridge.

Son of POLL TAX?
40

Professor-Quincy-Adams-Wagstaff ,

10/12/2008 16:06:33
Hen Broon 5 you are nothing but a cowardly bully boy.

Does issuing veiled threats on an internet forum make you feel tough?

You should be ashamed of yourself
41

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 10/12/2008 16:09:24
46 yes, funny that. Denial ?

Maybe James Purnell wants the unemployed to build this bridge and others in the manner of the one built over the River Kwai.
42

Jimbo2,

10/12/2008 16:20:25
New bridge payment plan questioned.

What alternative proposals have Labour put forward for funding the new bridge? Do thay still think PPP/PFI is the only way forward?

Do Labour actually have any policies/proposals to put forward on any subject for the benefit of the country and the people? Are they only capable of carping from the sidelines?
43

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 10/12/2008 16:56:17
It think John Swinney has done very well as finance secretary, I wouldn't describe him as hapless. What compared to those financial titans of debt and bust.

So tell me what your opinion is on local government taxation do you see property as a proxy for wealth or do you think income is more appropriate.

I see you haven't given me your opinion on the question I posed to you about AD / GB and finance?

Let me ask you another question do you think that given there time in government and lack of financial experience that Andy Kerr or Ian Gray would be better?

The man can only work with the tools he has in the Scotland Act, which are of course very limited. The stated first choice would be to raise a government bond, or go through the public PWLB.

As I wrote the chance of getting the PWLB is well rather scarce as PFI is the treasury's only show in town

I and nobody else are saying that SFT is not a work in progress, it's the SNP trying use intelligence and imagination to solve problems something that labour lack.

You may moan and say they shouldn't try because it might upset the union apple cart that's your opinion as for using PFI, it's a false dawn used by lazy politicans. It is an undemocratic and bizarre method of procurement.

Tell me in your experience have you even been involved in a private enterprise that has given a 25 or 30 FM contract?
44

Observer. 1,

Glasgow 10/12/2008 17:02:48
53 lost for words ?

Do you have any constructive suggestions for what the ''hapless'' Swinney should do ? Or are you just mouthing off.
45

Tormod,

Auld Reekie 10/12/2008 17:04:24
Also SM if you think PFI should be used, I wonder why it wasn't used for the Edinburgh Trams?

Do you think that the contractors were worried about the risk of this project outweighed the financial return for there capital hmm.
46

Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 17:10:09
"New Forth road bridge to be £2bn less than initial estimates"

That must be good news.
47

Hugh Roscombe,

10/12/2008 17:17:08
Grahamski

"I see the nats are up to their scummy old tricks, publishing their opponents phone numbers. No wonder the Herald banned them. Scum."

1 I don't condone posting others' phone numbers.
2 You are a lying hound saying the Herald banned the nats. It was a mental unionist who faked everybody.
48

Scunnert,

10/12/2008 17:17:30

Growth forecasts – US, UK & Eurozone

The downturn in the major economies continues to accelerate. This week’s PMI indices for November for the Eurozone and the UK weakened again from already very depressed levels. Germany factory orders for October dropped steeply, confirming the gloomy recent survey evidence, and Eurozone retail sales data for October also showed a faster than expected contraction. In the US, the non-manufacturing ISM dropped to an all-time low, and most strikingly, the employment report for November was far worse than expected. More than 500,000 jobs were shed in the month and negative revisions to previous data took jobs losses over the last three months to over 1.2 million. Against this background, radical economic policy measures such as ‘quantitative easing’ are rapidly gaining support.

tinyurl.com/6g6ue7

Quantitative easing means printing new money and buying up securities and treasury bonds.
49

,

10/12/2008 17:46:48
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50

Scunnert,

10/12/2008 18:11:18
Investors Buy U.S. Debt at Zero Yield

By VIKAS BAJAJ and MICHAEL M. GRYNBAUM
Published: December 9, 2008
When was the last time you invested in something that you knew wouldn’t make money?

Flight to Safety

In the market equivalent of shoveling cash under the mattress, hordes of buyers were so eager on Tuesday to park money in the world’s safest investment, United States government debt, that they agreed to accept a zero percent rate of return.

tinyurl.com/6eqhc4

51

,

10/12/2008 18:46:59
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52

,

10/12/2008 18:47:20
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53

,

10/12/2008 20:05:24
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54

,

10/12/2008 21:29:12
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55

Wardog™,

10/12/2008 23:42:24

"....We saved the World...."

Gordon Brown
December 2008

Later the same day Peer Steinbrück, the German Finance Minister, described Britain’s switch from financial prudence to heavy borrowing as crass and breath-taking. In an interview with Newsweek magazine, he criticised the decision to cut VAT. “All this will do is raise Britain’s debt to a level that will take a whole generation to work off,” he said.

Yes Gordon, you saved the world for ALL of us.

My gratitude knows no bounds

My children will be less forgiving.
56

Alan B,

11/12/2008 12:25:14
#sm753

For someone that is not a labourite you appear to support them and their position most of the time on these threads.

Is it just a case of supporting a party you do not support as they are not the snp?

If you are not a labourite then are you a tory but just do not want to come out and say so as it may undermine your unionist position due to their lack of popularity in scotland?

Your extreme unionism, fence sitting on calman, general contempt for the scottish parliament and admiration for westminster no matter how bad it is tend to suggest an old style tory.

 

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Today's Vote

Would you support the return of tolls to fund a new Forth Road Bridge?
No, it should be paid for in the same way as other roads.
Yes, it’s fairer for users to bear the brunt of the cost.
Yes, as long as it was only for a fixed amount of time.

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