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Capital's big four employers pledge only £1m for trams

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Published Date: 22 June 2009
THE four largest private sector firms in Edinburgh have pledged just over £1 million between them to the cost of the city's £545m tram project, it can be revealed today.
Council chiefs need to raise £25m of their £45m share in the project through contributions linked to developments along the length of the route.

But figures obtained by the Evening News show the Capital's four largest private sector employers, the
Royal Bank of Scotland, Bank of Scotland, Standard Life and Scottish Widows, have pledged just £1.1m to the trams, with only £350,000 of that sum actually received by the council.

All the money contributed so far has come from RBS, which is responsible for funding a tram stop at Gogarburn next to its HQ.

Scottish Widows, which along with the Bank of Scotland is owned by the Lloyds Banking Group, has pledged a further £760,000.

The money was paid out by the Scottish Widows Investment Partnership as part of the Exchange Place development next to the company's Morrison Street headquarters.

Neither Standard Life nor Bank of Scotland have agreed to provide funding for the project, but neither has an obligation to do so.

News of the payments comes after the council only managed to secure £1.4m in "tram tax" from the £850m redevelopment of the St James Centre – around £6.5m less than expected.

The council was also forced to settle for a £2.5m tram contribution from the firm behind the planned Morrison Street goods yards development, instead of the £4m it had originally demanded.

It is understood that the council still needs to bank another £40m towards its £45m share of the tramline's costs.

Shirley-Anne Somerville, an SNP MSP for the Lothians, said the council had been "over optimistic" about the funding it would receive from the private sector.

She said: "I am concerned at the lack of developers' contributions that have come in so far. I have always been worried about how over-optimistic the council were in the amount of money they would receive.

"I think it's a question the council's new finance convener, who was previously in charge of the trams, will have to give clear and definitive answers on."

Of the companies contacted by the Evening News, Standard Life said it had no plans to make a financial contribution to the project, while Scottish Widows Investment Partnership said its payment was in line with council policy on planning contributions.

A spokesman for RBS said: "We take very seriously our responsibilities to the fabric of Edinburgh society and economy and always have.

"We invest millions in the city and have employed thousands for many years.

"We were asked to make a contribution to the trams project and we fully intend to give exactly what was agreed with the council."

Councillor Gordon Mackenzie, city transport convener, said: "You can't require people to pay, other than through planning contributions.

"Obviously we would welcome contributions from any business, but I understand finances are difficult in the private sector at the moment, as they are in the public sector.

"That's why we have a 20-year-plus plan for developers' contributions along the tramline."





Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 22 June 2009 10:21 AM
  • Source: Edinburgh Evening News
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Edinburgh transport plans
 
1

bluehead,

edinburgh 22/06/2009 10:44:12
they are lucky to be offered a million pounds, if it were up to me they wouldn't get a brass farthing
what is going on in Edinburgh at this moment through the tram system is a diabolical disgrace,
Edinburgh will not known for its great castle or princes street gardens,it will be known as the city that likes to pour a lot of money down the sewer
just because of a few people,
what a tragedy!!!
2

simonp,

22/06/2009 11:56:54
0.18% of the cost of the project!1 biggest joke ever?
3

cammy burns,

Leith 22/06/2009 12:04:03
"trams taking you to the cleaners in 2011"
4

Big bob 79,

22/06/2009 12:05:15
Tram aid,
get a fund raiser going, sure Bono will jump at the chance to help out CEC and TIE get out of this shameful black hole they have dug
5

simonp,

22/06/2009 12:09:32
does it mean that if ECC can not get the £45m the project will be cancelled?
6

Big bob 79,

22/06/2009 12:14:47
#6 No
It just means more schools closed, less council jobs and serivces, and higher council tax
7

Old Town,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 12:18:49
Watch prices go up in council services, to include bus fares or will there be some sort of stealth tax appearing.
8

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 12:21:15
"It is understood that the council still needs to bank another £40m towards its £45m share of the tramline's costs' - or, to put it another way, the cooncil has STILL accounted for barely 10% of its share. I bet that's causing a few twittery bottoms at the City Chambers. And that's BEFORE the shambolic project management of TIE is 'likely to push up the cost of the £545 million scheme by millions' - http://www.scotsman.com/edinburghs-new-tram-network/39No-way39-tram-project-will.5385880.jp
9

,

22/06/2009 12:23:39
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10

Mince Pie Supper,

22/06/2009 12:27:38
The Princes Street pedestrian tax will pay for it.

Soon we are going to have to queue up at the east or west end at turnstiles to get in.

Although the scheme will cost £114m to implement.
11

Leila,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 12:31:26
Day after day, month after month, we read that the tram project is behind schedule, over budget, and the council hasn't got its contribution because it isn't collecting anything like it anticipated in developer contributions. This is all fact, not negative spin. We know it. TIE knows it. The Council knows it. WHEN IS SOMETHING GOING TO BE DONE ABOUT THIS DISASTER?
12

Road Raga,

EDINBURGH 22/06/2009 12:35:32
I wonder if people moaned so much when the first Edinburgh trams were built.
Probably, the great grandparents of the current crop of 'the end of the world is neigh, we are all doomed the trams are coming ' types.

Nothing ever changes.
13

Trams shams,

22/06/2009 12:36:39
Come on out Foo... Come on out Duncan... Come on out all ye Trammies, the cart is here to take away yer dead horse ye been flawg'n all these years.
14

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 12:38:01
Anyone with any sense would be able to see by now that this project is unsustainable. Not one single rail has been layed yet but they are already talking about the price going up. Most of the project has been cancelled already, yet the total estimated cost has risen.

The city centre looks like a compound at Guantanamo Bay, right in the middle of the tourist season. Businesses are failing left, right and centre. Traffic disruption abounds and thousands of gallons of fuel per day are being wasted by vehicles sitting in traffic jams.

Even if this project is finally completed, the result will be a fraction of what is planned and will probably only serve as disruption and inconvenience rather than a useful service.

For heaven's sake PLEASE see sense and scrap this ridiculous white elephant before any more money is wasted on it.
15

I love to wax with Duct tape,

22/06/2009 12:38:17
You are all so laughably short sighted and just plain wrong! The trams will be Edinburgh's salvation when the economy recovers. We will have a modern green transport infrastructure that will serve us well for the rest of the century.

How was that, Foo? Can I have my undies back now?
16

Bring Back Poll Tax,

22/06/2009 12:43:13
Why on earth should any private sector organisation have to contribute (unless they're paying for a dedicated tram stop).

After all, through business rates, they contribute large tranches of cash annually which means that in future they, like private Council Tax payers, will be lumbered with having to pay for the annual operating deficit (until such time as the whole shambles is sold off to First or whoever for a quid).
17

Stoogefinder General,

22/06/2009 12:46:39
When Gorgie Tony posts (as he always does) please do not respond.
18

Mallory,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 12:47:50
Must be a mistake here - locals were told years ago that that RBS, Grosvenor Estates and AMA were coughing up £750,000 for their contribution to the Trams.

This in addition to the millions of pounds taken by the council for selling off the Park land at Fountain North, aka Springside.
19

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 12:48:39
Road Rage:

"I wonder if people moaned so much when the first Edinburgh trams were built."

No. They probably didn't. The reasons? For a start there was orders of magnitude less traffic in the city centre then. Far fewer people had cars and additionally, there were a lot fewer big multi-nationals in Edinburgh then. People tended to live near their place of work and thus commuted less. The local railways were running then and this would have further reduced the amount of potential traffic.

The original tram system used tramcars that were a great deal smaller and lighter than those proposed. Additionally, there was not anything near the amount of underground services to move beforehand.

The country wasn't health and safety mad in those days so none of the off-putting, unsightly barriers would been erected. This would have meant that shops remained accessible and visible. Traffic diversions would have been minimal becasue in those days, drivers tended to think further ahead than the end of their bonnet and as a result could negotiate their way around a few holes in the road without too much trouble.

I fully expect you to disagree with most, if not all that I have said but if you think a bit, you'll realise I'm actually right.
20

Big bob 79,

22/06/2009 12:51:51

michael shumaker is not the stig

21

Foo,

22/06/2009 12:52:29
#14 & #16

I'm not sure what's got you two squeeling in delight so much. The trams are being built, the tracks have been laid and they are on their way. They aren't being cancelled. This story means nothing.
22

Mince Pie Supper,

22/06/2009 12:53:12
Quite right 20, well done.
23

Mince Pie Supper,

22/06/2009 12:53:56
21

He is the Stig, but only in the same way that David Tennant is the current Dr Who.
24

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 12:55:10
#21:

No. I am.
25

The Judge,

22/06/2009 12:56:33
They haven't even managed to collect enough to pay the Tie employee bonuses.

Yet still Steve & Jenny are going to force this project through.

Isn't about time one of the councillors responsible for this car crash actually told us where the money is coming from?

The Cheerleader has been very quite for someone who was named TramLINE communications tzar.

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/edinburghtransportplans/Cardownie-named-tram-cheerleader.4808583.jp
26

Padraig,

22/06/2009 12:56:40
Road Raga #13 (unlucky for some) said "I wonder if people moaned so much when the first Edinburgh trams were built."

No - everyone saw that laying rails made it easier for the horses to pull the coaches that bacame "trams" - making a quicker and cheaper journey for passengers (fewer horses needed). Because labour was cheap and "a day's work" didn't comprice leaning on a shovel or sitting in a portacabin all day, it was cheap and quick to lay the rails, they were laying rails to accommodate the same size of coaches as were already running on the streets, not trains and, finally, there was not the volume of traffic that there is in a modern city, accustomed to easy travel - most people had to live within walking distance of their factory or brewery - or could afford to run a carriage if they lived in the New Town.

In the last 150 years, the city has developed well beyond its size then as has its economy. ANd the flights of fancy that the city councillors now indulge themselves in instead of providing for the actual needs of those who elected them.

Yes, a lot has changed since the mid-19th century.
27

,

22/06/2009 12:57:41
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28

,

22/06/2009 12:57:54
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29

Padraig,

22/06/2009 12:59:57
Alternative #20 - Snap!
30

scotsol,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 13:07:53
Another £10 or so per month on the council tax, for one year only, would raise the necessary dosh. If it becomes necessary. Wow. The end of the world.

For the benefit of the historians posting today, the first trams in Edinburgh were cable cars. Two moving cables had to be installed below street level, a slow one and a fast one. I would therefore have thought installing all this plus machinery to move them must have been a bit of a nightmare even then.
31

Julien Donkey Kong,

22/06/2009 13:10:46
RBS is owned by the taxpayer. In effect the trams hace received f***-all from private sector firms. And why would they? The trams have been responsible for businesses in Edinburgh losing money.

The trams = Edinburgh's curse. They've been a disaster from day one, and that's not going to change.
32

Trams shams,

22/06/2009 13:11:00
Oh Foo... You poor, divorced-from-reality little man.
In summary, just because you can't make sense of the majesty of truth...

The project has been cut
It's going to be over budget
It's going to be over due

Yes… There will be some saving grace in the form of the single track… Oh Whoopee!!

But…

Because of idiots like you and your fellow supporter/s in the Council, this burden of disgrace to waste, this short-sighted-green-orientated-overly complex-ego pampering lump of Foo-poo will be hung around our necks financially for evening wanting to stay in Edinburgh after this truly pathetic performance by a Council, for decades to come.
33

Trams shams,

22/06/2009 13:12:21
#31... Idiot!! Why should I and other who oppose this pay £120/year more on our Council Tax!
34

Trams shams,

22/06/2009 13:13:07
#31... Idiot!! Why should I and others (opps)(kinda giving the opposition some ammo there!) who oppose this pay £120/year more on our Council Tax!
35

,

22/06/2009 13:16:19
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36

Mince Pie Supper,

22/06/2009 13:18:01
Damn this over optimistic Council and their over optimistic ideas.

Wake up halfwits!
37

Mince Pie Supper,

22/06/2009 13:20:12
Come on, hands in yer pockets, lets have a whipround.

This is all OUR fault!
38

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 13:20:13
#31:

Actually, the tunnels that used to carry these cables are part of the problem today. They are not strong enough to support the weight of the modern tramcars and to further complicate things, the streets have many more services installed underground.

Things like cable TV and fibre-optic telephone cables hadn't been invented in those days. Neither had bus tracker devices and data networks to control the city's traffic light system.

In those days they probably would have worked around the clock---with the bulk of the work being done overnight. Seeing as most people would have been in bed by 10pm, this would have meant that the roads in question could have been closed completely to allow unhindered work to take place. There was less beaurocracy and red-tape then and the emphasis was on getting the job done, as opposed to having a committee meting to discuss the reasons why it couldn't/wouldn't be done.
39

,

22/06/2009 13:20:20
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40

Foo,

22/06/2009 13:21:47
33

The project has been cut

* Eh, no it hasn't.

It's going to be over budget

* Possibly. Extra £50 one off payment on everyone’s council tax would sort this

It's going to be over due

* Again, possibly. Most large scale projects are.

We're all idiots for daring to support something you've deemed as evil? Perhaps we aren't all moany, flappy, bearded clams that hitch up our skirts and scream hysterically every time EEN reports the project director farts? Do yourself a favour, shut that overly large mouth of yours.
41

The Answer,

Glasgow 22/06/2009 13:24:24
RBS and BOS are both UK public sector companies!

ie the English taxpayer owns 85%.
42

,

22/06/2009 13:26:25
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43

,

22/06/2009 13:27:09
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44

,

22/06/2009 13:27:59
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45

P I Staker,

22/06/2009 13:30:35
With RBS donating (however much) will it mean that RBS employees can go right to the front of the queue to get on the electric tram, just like the set up that was initially forced on the NHS with the scanner?
46

Julien Donkey Kong,

22/06/2009 13:30:38
69 a wifey on the trams
69 a wifey on the trams
69 a wifey
as wide as the River Liffey
69 a wifey on the trams

47

,

22/06/2009 13:31:53
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48

The Answer,

Glasgow 22/06/2009 13:32:48
I suppose the muslim kilt sellers are the largest private sector employers in edinburgh now.

What a reflection on scots.
49

Julien Donkey Kong,

22/06/2009 13:33:11
I was borned of Nintendo-san
50

Mince Pie Supper,

22/06/2009 13:33:57
Can you get on a Tram with a bag of chips?
51

Big bob 79,

22/06/2009 13:34:32
#41 The line has been cut as it was intended to go to the terminal at Edinburgh airport.
This was chanegd to the terminus being moved to the park and ride nearly a mile from the terminal?......

This is why Lothian Buses have been allowed to run the Airport service 100 after 2012. As the tram will not actually go to the Airport. This is why it was reported last week (scooters on buses) we are getting brandnew airport buses to keep the service going

Another Tram failure but a victory for Lothian Buses
52

Mince Pie Supper,

22/06/2009 13:34:37
Can you take a pot of paint on?
53

scotsol,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 13:34:48
#34 - Temper, temper. It's £100, since we only pay in ten months of the year. And you should pay because the scheme is necessary, devised by cleverer and more far-sighted people than you.
54

Mince Pie Supper,

22/06/2009 13:34:58
Do we get adverts on the back of Tram tickets?
55

Mince Pie Supper,

22/06/2009 13:35:14
Can you get change on a Tram?
56

Julien Donkey Kong,

22/06/2009 13:36:19
Can you do a real smelly phart on the trams and waft it
57

Mince Pie Supper,

22/06/2009 13:37:39
57

These are exactly the sort of questions we SHOULD be asking as in 20 years who cares about the cost.

I want to know if the windows will steam up when it rains!
58

,

22/06/2009 13:38:03
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59

Mince Pie Supper,

22/06/2009 13:39:37
Can we get Radio Forth on the Trams like we did the busses when I was wee?
60

,

22/06/2009 13:41:13
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61

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 13:41:21
#41 - Foo, the original plan was three lines, then two then one. That sounds like a cut to me.

"Possibly" over budget and late. Original budget £500m for the line being built. Current cost - unknown but significantly in excess of £545m. Original completion date Feb 2011 (check the business plan), then revised to summer 2011. Given some parts are now over 1 year behind the summer 2011 schedule I would say that is definately late to me.

Extra £50 on council tax would only raise £10m. The council has a shortfall of a minimum £40m at present. And to put up council tax for a project that not only serves such a small percentage of the population but is a disbenefit to an even bigger percentage would be unacceptable. Remember we were told that council tax would not be used for this farce.

I suggest that instead of insulting those people who care about this city and hate the way that politicians and liars at TIE abuse it, who understand the value of money and who unlike you have taken time to research this disaster in the making that you are the one who should shut your overly large mouth.
62

Julien Donkey Kong,

22/06/2009 13:43:56
Will Ewan & Roughie do their phone in from the tram?
63

Trams shams,

22/06/2009 13:45:55
Foo... Eh... Yes it has been cut. Big bob 79 is rightly intrepretating what I meant. Pity you did not before replying.
64

,

22/06/2009 13:45:56
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65

Foo,

22/06/2009 13:48:59
#62
To me that sounds like a cut back. If the trams had been cut as he said, they wouldn't be coming at all. GraemeH, normally I wouldn't insult, but the general level of peronal insults towards those that support the trams from anti-trammers is very high. I was merely seeking to redress the balance.
66

Mince Pie Supper,

22/06/2009 13:49:11
Will the Trams run at New Year?

Will there be a Saturday service?

Will they fly past with a "not in service" sign?

Will they sit for 10 minutes to change the driver?
67

Florence,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 13:50:52
16 I LOVE TO.. Edinburgh's salvation from what?
68

,

22/06/2009 13:50:53
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69

Julien Donkey Kong,

22/06/2009 13:51:05
Will the trams ever save anyone time or money?


no.
70

Julien Donkey Kong,

22/06/2009 13:52:25
The number 22 bus was a ****ing miracle compared to the trams.
71

Bring Back Poll Tax,

22/06/2009 13:53:19
#54

"#34 And you should pay because the scheme is necessary, devised by cleverer and more far-sighted people than you"

People who were so clever that they couldn't produce a credible budget or negotiate a watertight contract or manage a project within a timescale............

So far-sighted that they couldn't see that an economic downturn would render their back of the fag packet revenue projections utterly useless.........
72

,

22/06/2009 13:53:43
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73

,

22/06/2009 13:54:12
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74

Trams shams,

22/06/2009 13:55:10
Foo... You try and make yourself out to be a reasoned, thinking man. Pity (again) you can not see what this ill-thought out project is doing to our Captial, City and money!
75

,

22/06/2009 13:56:05
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76

Mince Pie Supper,

22/06/2009 13:56:17
Lets watch Foo post a lot more as we approach 100.
77

Foo,

22/06/2009 13:57:52
Lets watch anti-tramn nitwits post a lot more as we approach 100.
78

Mince Pie Supper,

22/06/2009 13:59:01
I love Trams!
79

Julien Donkey Kong,

22/06/2009 13:59:40
Powerpoint tram presentation

Auld Mackay clicks the mouse, a slide appears with clip art handshake. McKay sips his tumbler of squash.

"S'about synsergies people. Going forward synergies. A one stop shop solution"
80

Julien Donkey Kong,

22/06/2009 14:00:10
Tramsarecrap
81

Mince Pie Supper,

22/06/2009 14:00:57
I love Roadworks!
82

Julien Donkey Kong,

22/06/2009 14:02:45
Sorry sorry sorry I was misreading the above comments, I though it was about tramps.

I've got a beard and I sleep in the graveyard and use one teabag to last for a week and I stand round a bin on fire singing trampsongs and I buy tins of electric soup from the co-op.
83

Trams shams,

22/06/2009 14:06:27
Marcél Bouffant.
For a person who has half the name of a well respected mime artist yet and the other half of a big puffed out hair style, I'm firstly surprised you have anything to say at all and secondly, not surprised by Mickey & Mallory Knockers running commentry on yourself and Foo
84

Grumpy,

22/06/2009 14:06:43
Bank of Scotland and Scottish Widows don't have any major buildings (except for a small office at Haymarket) along the route of the tram - so why pay anything?
85

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 14:08:22
#31, Scotsol, sorry, you're wrong. The first trams in Edinburgh were horse-drawn. The cable cars were introduced later to serve the northern New Town because the horses couldn't manage the climb up Dundas Street and gradually extended, before being converted to electric traction in 1922. Please pay attention.
86

Statsman,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 14:18:24
How much of an increase in council tax is this waste of money going to cost me?

Maybe the EEN could create a figure for households in each tax band.
87

Statsman,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 14:20:38
86 Thomas the Tank

Did you expect any of these extremist lefty tram supporters to know what they are talking about?
88

Incandescent,

22/06/2009 14:24:37
#86 Thomas

Scotsol is wrong more often than not. He has already stated he doesn't care what the majority thinks or wants as he knows better. His supercilious comments above merely continued this theme, culminating in the shockingly arrogant assertions that we should all pay higher council tax (*only* another £100!) to pull this project out of the mud.

In any case, if CEC wanted something "world class" it should've been a subway.
89

Hissy Fit,

Wimbledon 22/06/2009 14:29:26
In the first mixed doubles match of the tournament, Mario & Foo are love-forty to Mickey & Mallory.
90

Leila,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 14:36:03
It seems to me that what this comes down to is:

- IF we had very poor existing public transport in Edinburgh, AND
- there were unrestricted funds to build a tram network or whatever else to improve public transport,

then we would have reason to be pretty happy overall about the tram project.

However, since
- we already have good public transport (even if it's not "iconic"), AND
- there's only a limited pot of money, not even enough to finish the job,

then a lot of people in Edinburgh are getting pretty worried about where the rest of the money is supposed to come from, as well as wondering how we're going to be any better off, after years of upheaval, with a reduced bus service and half a tramline.

The envy of other cities? More like a laughing stock.
91

Crazy Horse,

22/06/2009 14:38:13
Why not have horse drawn trams? They have a nice retro look and would complement the rickshaws at festival time. You could also put the manure on your rhubarb patch.
92

Mince Pie Supper,

22/06/2009 14:43:13
http://www.camvista.com/scotland/edinburgh/histedin_streaming.php3

Ha Ha! Live streaming comedy from the Edinburgh comedy festival!

Ha Ha!
93

Mince Pie Supper,

22/06/2009 14:46:35
Here's Tony for the 100.

Go for it Foo and Tony!!!
94

Foo,

22/06/2009 14:48:22
Here's some pro-tram supporter dealing with the anti-tram brigae in his country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2RG-vMLGCk
95

bumf,

22/06/2009 14:48:27
93

It must be faked in some way.

Some of the workers are moving.
96

bumf,

22/06/2009 14:49:06
Roll on the trams.

Over Tony's neck is best!
97

bumf,

22/06/2009 14:49:23
nearly there...
98

bumf,

22/06/2009 14:49:38
100 - yahoo!!!
99

Mince Pie Supper,

22/06/2009 14:50:05
Well done bumf, that Foo's nose out of joint.
100

I love to wax with Duct tape,

22/06/2009 14:56:31
Foo, thanks for sharing your favourite Walter Mitty moment with us.

What a sorry-ersed wee inadequate you are.
101

Foo,

22/06/2009 14:57:17
Mince Pie Supper

Don't you start. I always thought you were all right! And don't associate me with GT, he's a horrible little troll of a person.
102

Mince Pie Supper,

22/06/2009 15:02:01
Apologies Foo, I merely observed that you like to get the 100.

I have to admit I don't know that much about George Tony.
103

Foo,

22/06/2009 15:02:35
I love to wax with Duct tape

Firstly, I was just having a laugh.

Secondly, you're 'Walter Mitty' comment tells it all. You're that homosexual from Hawick that was making all the sexual remarks to people. You're not going to start all that again, are you?
104

I love to wax with Duct tape,

22/06/2009 15:08:50
#68 Edinburgh's salvation from pointless materialism. We'd all be better off being poor wee scunners. Check out Foo and Gorgie Tony's posts to see how that would feel.

Gorgie Tony is Foo's dad, btw. Can you see the similarity?
105

Foo,

22/06/2009 15:13:02
106

Just shut up.
106

I love to wax with Duct tape,

22/06/2009 15:16:46
As I recall, poor maligned Foo, there are no overt sexual fantasies in the Walter Mitty stories.

As for homos from Hawick making suggestive remarks to you, are you sure you haven't typed out your shopping list by mistake?
107

Mallory,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 15:17:17
http://www.camvista.com/scotland/edinburgh/histedin_streaming.php3

The new Scotsman Haggis Competition. Hunt the 700 strong workforce
108

reincarnated,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 15:32:13
My auntie Flo is 83, lives in Morningside and likes to visit her pal Bessie who lives in Blackhall. I am at a loss how to explain to her the benefit of the tram system that Foo keeps going on about. Can you help me Foo?
109

Foo,

22/06/2009 15:35:36
110

No, sorry. I would, but any comments from pro-tram supporters are simply met with increasingly nasty levels of abuse. Forget it.
110

Incandescent,

22/06/2009 15:43:43
#92 Crazy Horse

Horses would bring back the old problem of manure. Instead, special lightwight trams could be pulled by a team comprised of; Foo, Marcel, Duncan, Scotsol, Road Raga and roadstohell, led by Gorgie Tony. Sarah B could drive and wield the whip.

On second thoughts, this approach wouldn't avoid the manure problem.
111

bumf,

22/06/2009 15:44:42
111

In post 103 you describe someone as "a horrible little troll of a person".

Shouldn't you tone down your own posts before accusing others of being nasty?
112

,

22/06/2009 15:44:48
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113

Foo,

22/06/2009 15:46:35
113

Yes, you're probably right, but as in the past GT has openly called for 'thrashing' 5 year olds, 'thrashing' school kids and hanging bike riders and car users, I feel I'm justified.
114

,

22/06/2009 15:48:48
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115

,

22/06/2009 15:53:30
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116

,

22/06/2009 15:55:10
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117

brianmca3,

auld reekie 22/06/2009 16:10:45
#18 at last someone saying what most of us are now doing
GT is like having grumbling piles,a stomach doing a rumba
all very unwelcome and best avoided
GT is a pox on society,must sit typing like a slavish masocist who loves the pain of us lot slagging him off
may the fleas of a thousand camels infest tonys rectum
118

I love to wax with Duct tape,

22/06/2009 16:19:49
#119 It must be working. He hasn't posted since #94.

If only Foo would take the hint and do the same!
119

,

22/06/2009 16:19:54
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120

Lang Spoon,

The Peoples' Republic of Leith 22/06/2009 16:20:33
I sincerely hope I'm wrong in this prediction, but here it is:-

The shortfall in the council share of the Tramline cost will be met by the SALE of Lothian Buses.

This will be a disaster for Edinburgh!

Would any councillor like to deny this possibility?
121

,

22/06/2009 16:20:48
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122

Foo,

22/06/2009 16:22:32
Just to move away from the personal insults, I have a serious question; those who are against the tram system, network, line, whatever you want to call it, are you planning to actually use it, should you need to, or will you boycott it out of principle?
123

,

22/06/2009 16:25:55
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124

Foo,

22/06/2009 16:27:54
125

Well, I did say, should you need to. So lets say you're on Princes street and you want to go to the shore. Will you use it?
125

,

22/06/2009 16:28:29
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126

,

22/06/2009 16:29:32
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127

I love to wax with Duct tape,

22/06/2009 16:30:00
#123 See post #96.
128

Foo,

22/06/2009 16:30:08
Will the 22 still be running?
129

Foo,

22/06/2009 16:31:36
"The trams are likely going to cost at least £4 for a return"

I wasn't aware that pricing had been decided upon yet. Is that a correct figure
130

,

22/06/2009 16:31:52
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131

,

22/06/2009 16:32:37
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,

22/06/2009 16:33:14
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133

,

22/06/2009 16:34:54
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,

22/06/2009 16:36:55
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,

22/06/2009 16:38:12
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,

22/06/2009 16:38:36
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22/06/2009 16:41:15
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22/06/2009 16:42:19
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139

Foo,

22/06/2009 16:42:41
#137

It was just a joke. Don't worry about it. #129 took it as proof I've got a disorder or something. It's just a youtube of rambo shooting a bunch of people.
140

Alice in Embraland,

22/06/2009 16:44:51
We're the Embra Tramsters baby, we'll do it right
Our plans are out of sight

You don't need buses
You can't access shops
You won't be able to disembark
'Cause there aren't any stops

We're the Embra Tramsters baby, we don't work fast
We need our jobs to last

We wake up every morning
And sit around all day
Every time we dig a hole
We fill it in again

We're the Embra Tramsters baby, we've got dosh
We've got taxpayers' cash

We pay ourselves big bonuses
And drink lots of Champagne
If there is a shortfall
The price goes up again

We're the Embra Tramsters baby, putting on a show
Who needs The Festival?

We never let our public down
We've never made a boob
We have a super website
And videos on YouTube

We're the Embra Tramsters baby, but here comes the twist
The tramlines won't exist

141

Sarah B,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 17:00:54
Incandescent (112)- that is certainly a more environmentally friendly solution that what is on offer just now.

Foo (124) - you have asked a serious question and I shall give you a serious answer: I would not use it if the fares are too high.

Your question is a very good one because the success of the tram will eventually be decided primarily upon whether it can attract sufficient numbers to (a) cover its operating costs (thereby allowing Lothian Buses to flourish); (b) whether it will attract sufficient numbers of former car users to demonstrate that it has had a significant effect on congestion/air quality.

Because a route was chosen which was heavily reliant on passengers coming from the Waterfront and other developments which were not yet built (and will not be for many years) and we are now experiencing an indefinite period of economic downturn, the tram is now predicted to incur massive annual operating losses for several years and make absolutely no improvement to congestion/pollution.

Given that Lothian Buses has already cut back its less profitable operations and increased fares, it is hard to see what options will remain open to the new public transport company, other than to increase fares and, given the requirement for parity with the trams, tram fares will obviously be set at the same level. If the fares are too high, people will not use them, public transport user numbers will fall and car usage will increase.

Ian Craig of Lothian Buses recently gave an interview in which he stated that there is public resistence to paying fares of over £1.20 single and, whilst I can accept that some people may be prepared to pay more to travel by tram, I do not see that the level of increase required would encourage public transport usage generally.

Therefore,I believe that Lothian Buses is likely to experience further falls in passenger numbers; the tram will not reach its predicted passenger numbers because the assumed base is not there; and ca
142

Sarah B,

Edinbufgh 22/06/2009 17:03:02
... and car usage will increase.
143

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 17:22:26
#111:

"No, sorry. I would, but any comments from pro-tram supporters are simply met with increasingly nasty levels of abuse."

Could the real reason be that if you are travelling between Morningside and Blackhall using public transport, the tram will be of no benefit?

If a line running from the west end of Princes Street (which is what it will end up as) to the foot of Leith Walk can be of benefit to someone travelling between Blackhall and Morningside then please enlighten us all. No direct route that I can think of goes anywhere near Princes Street or Leith Walk. Even if it ends up going to Gogar as planned, it would still be no use.

If you classify arguements against the tram as being "abuse" then I pity you. Even as one of the most outspoken anti-tram people, I have never written personal abuse about you.
144

Stoogefinder General,

22/06/2009 18:04:29
140

You are Mario. Do I win a prize?

Marcél Bouffant is aka Foo, an IT contractor at the EEN.
145

roadstohell,

22/06/2009 18:32:46
How about a tax on vehicles coming into the city ?
I mean a higher tax if you want to enter the city centre, and a lowe, but still substantial tax, if you want to cross into the city, say by coming off the bypass.

This would raise a great deal of money indeed.

I also think that TIE & CEC could sell "Tram Bonds" to Edinburgh citizns, with say a minimum of £100 bond person, £500/household.

And a drastic cutting back in services, schools.roads, rubbish collection, concommitant with a huge increase in Council tax would also help.
146

calum,

22/06/2009 19:10:38
For what its worth, I'm not against trams as a form of transports for considerable numbers of people, but I am against the Edinburgh scheme in its present form. It has been poorly researched, poorly planned, the route is wrong, the hardware is wrong, the business case was always optimistic, the safety case is non-existent, it was a tool of vain politicians to battle out hidden agendas, there are more pressing transport priorities in Scotland ....... and other than that it has nothing much else going for it.
Learn from European Cities and towns who have done it much better.
147

calum,

22/06/2009 19:16:27
PS - If only there had been some on the TIE company or in politics with the sense of Sarah B, Thomas the Tank, or Graham H.
148

ikonoclast,

22/06/2009 19:53:18
28, "With a red-faced Fooboy underneath" - LOL!
149

Euan,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 20:24:53
#124 Foo

In response to your question, I said to myself about two or so years ago that I would never, ever set foot on one of the trams out of principle.

I could not and will not support a project that I do not believe represents any sort of value or purpose to Edinburgh and Scotland as a whole.

If I want to get to the airport for example, I will always get the very reliable and useful #35 bus from almost right outside my front door.

You know my views on this project and I believe that should this scandalous project ever be completed, many people with the same views on the trams as I have will simply vote with their feet and just not use it.

Not that they'd use it anyway because the tram LINE won't even go where 95% of Edinburgh's citizens would actually want to go.



150

Eric The Archer,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 20:35:42
It is interesting that the longer the debate about the trams goes on the longer and more interesting the comments (such as those above) become. Do you think our local politicians read any of this stuff?
I still think that it would be a good idea, if only for historial purposes, for web site to be set up detail, all in one place, who made the decisions, calculations, tendering process, planning, financing etc. Anyone, any group, out there willing to take on the challenge?
151

Andrew,

22/06/2009 20:46:49
The last tram trundles of
16th November 1956 - a SAD DAY for Edinburgh and
4th September 1962 - a SAD DAY for Glasgow!
At least parts of these city centres' USEFUL tram networks should have BEEN MODERNISED to encourage their ongoing future refurbishment/development - rather than having been so hastily abandoned & now requiring mega-bucks for the TOTAL rebuilds we see today!
152

Alternative (High Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 22:06:38
#147:

You really have gone this time.
153

tumshie heid,

22/06/2009 23:10:49
Ha Ha, more tram misery. Can't be far away from imploding now can they?
154

Thomas the Tank,

Edinburgh 22/06/2009 23:38:43
# 157 RS, Just found the Glossy Leaflet issued when Dopey Andra' Burns and his pals, Teflon Don Anderson(who?) and Dick Dastardly Davies (who?), along with a supporting cast of idiots were trying to sell us their TollTax (the campaign that squandered £9 Million) - it promised we'd have a 'High Quality Tram SYSTEM' running by 2009 or a "State-of-the-Art Tram SYSTEM" operational by 2009.
They knew they didn't have the funding but pushed ahead, regardless - every one of them should be personally surcharged.
155

Julian.,

edinburgh 23/06/2009 01:37:20
Elevated Dalek,

Did you p!sh your trousers as well when the city bypass went over budget and they announced it was still going be free to use?

Funny thing that about public services. The price you pay to use them doesn't always relate to the cost of running them. It's what sets them apart from private services. Something a lot of people on these forums seem to forget.

Your £4 prediction and refusal to use the trams is well noted. I'll maybe remind you of those words in a couple of years.
156

GraemeH,

Edinburgh 23/06/2009 09:20:20
#155 - You are right that 2010 was one of the dates (your other posts show "completion" dates as early as last year!) however the 2011 was taken from the final business plans approved by the council.

#160 - Julian, as much as it may pain you to know it, the tram is not a public service in the truest sense. Lothian Buses cannot be run at a loss and subsidised by the taxpayer.

By law, the tram cannot be subsidised as any public subsidy must meet a clear social need basis which the free market cannot otherwise provide and the subsidy must be available to any other operator on a competitive basis. Value for money is also a factor in any decision and the vanity tram fails completely on those grounds.
157

The Judge,

23/06/2009 10:59:33
#160 The city bypass was opened 8 months early and came in under budget. To drive along it legally you need to buy a road fund licence, you're vehicle needs to be MOTd & you have to be insured. It's hardly "free" is it?

The only way the half a tramLINE to no-where could be stopped is if the local politicos want it to stop, Cardownie & Dawes have made it very clear they have no intention of stopping the half a tramLINE. They won't even tell us how much it's going to cost or where the money is coming from.

158

Stoogefinder General,

23/06/2009 11:11:45
Note that Mario has had all his posts as "Elevated Dalek Exodus" removed.

Who could he be hiding from?
159

Julian.,

edinburgh 23/06/2009 22:42:28
Judge,

OK, bad example. But I can think of numerous better ones.

How about your local hospital? You don't have to have paid anything for that directly or indirectly to get service. The only criteria is that you are an EU citizen.

Or how about your local library? Or your local school?

Or if we're talking transport, how about using the buses if you are a pensioner? All you have to be is over 60. Nothing else.
160

Julian.,

edinburgh 23/06/2009 22:48:03
GraemeH,

Well, if you are correct, they're just going to have to change the rules. Because the tram line cannot run at a profit. That doesn't necessarily make it bad though. I mean how about the London Underground? It would never have been built if we had listened to all the whingers shouting £4 a ticket/this'll have to be subsidised by the taxpayer.

Yet today Londoners don't bat an eyelid. They view it as essential and worthy of public subsidy.

 

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